What Needs to Be True? The Question That Changed How a CRO Leads

0:00 - Any time you feel yourself wanting to quit,

0:02 you might be on the, it might be tough,

0:04 or you might have the wrong mission.

0:06 And I don't think in all these years,

0:09 I don't think I've ever questioned the mission.

0:11 - My guest today is Nick Reyes,

0:13 Chief Revenue Officer at Push Press,

0:15 the gym operating system that powers

0:17 thousands of fitness businesses.

0:20 - So I think even just looking back then,

0:22 there was a little bit of like, go against the grain,

0:25 don't just conform to what everyone's doing,

0:27 because that's what you're supposed to do.

0:30 - One thing you mentioned in our prep call

0:31 that I thought was really interesting,

0:33 speaks to my heart as a RevOps professional.

0:36 You regret not hiring RevOps earlier.

0:41 - I feel like I waded through the mud for several years,

0:45 rather than they could support me

0:48 and the entire go-to-market team.

0:50 - So if you wanna get to 40 million,

0:51 you're gonna need this many reps,

0:53 we're gonna have to convert at this rate,

0:54 you're gonna have to build this pipeline,

0:55 the pipeline needs to come in right now,

0:56 we're gonna need to activate these channels,

0:58 churn's gonna have to be here.

1:00 It's like, "C-Ray, it's impossible."

1:03 And he goes, "This is everything I've been hoping for."

1:07 (laughing)

1:10 I was like, "What did I just do?"

1:12 (upbeat music)

1:18 - Nick, you were the one kid out of one of the best

1:22 prep schools in the country who said no to college

1:25 and went to the Marine Corps instead.

1:27 What was going on in your head at 18

1:29 and what did that choice set up for everything after?

1:35 - Well, this is a little bit of a blast from the past

1:38 to start the episode with and Anthony,

1:40 I really appreciate you having me here.

1:43 You know, I think back then,

1:44 there was so much pressure to make amazing grades,

1:50 be in the top of the class, choose the right college.

1:54 And I think over time of just studying

1:56 throughout the summer, doing summer assignments,

1:58 seemingly going to school year round,

2:00 there was a combination of both burnout

2:02 and then also like everyone else

2:04 was doing the exact same thing.

2:07 I grew up wrestling, I was a little kid,

2:09 I wrestled 125 pounds, yep, yep, in high school.

2:14 And there was a little bit of like,

2:16 you know, you can't go and do hard things,

2:19 you're a little guy.

2:21 So naturally ended up choosing

2:23 one of the more difficult military services to enlist in.

2:27 So I think even just looking back then,

2:29 there was a little bit of like, go against the grain,

2:31 don't just conform to what everyone's doing

2:34 because that's what you're supposed to do,

2:36 kind of maybe in my DNA

2:38 or maybe I picked it up somewhere at a younger age,

2:40 but you know, largely that was what was going through my head

2:43 was maybe compensate a little bit

2:45 for a shortcoming of being small

2:46 and don't follow the norm, you know.

2:50 - I love it.

2:51 Well, I have a wrestling background too,

2:52 I don't think there's a better sport to teach,

2:54 discipline, perseverance, endurance.

2:56 And then I didn't take the Marine Corps out,

2:59 but I feel like that just takes it

3:00 to an absolute next level.

3:03 - Yeah, yeah.

3:04 Oh, the discipline that you get from wrestling

3:06 certainly served me in my military years

3:09 and then the, you know,

3:11 building on that discipline in the Marine Corps.

3:13 The Marine Corps really shaped me as an adult

3:15 at a, you know, at a really young age.

3:18 You know, you're a teenager,

3:19 but you're given a ton of responsibility.

3:22 Coming out of the Marine Corps,

3:23 it was like, well, what do I do now?

3:26 I think that's a lot of things

3:27 that anyone who's leaving the military service

3:29 kind of falls into is, you know, what's next?

3:31 And I found myself kind of gravitating towards sales.

3:36 I had done some, you know,

3:37 part-time sales jobs in high school and stuff like that,

3:40 but like I really enjoyed interacting with people.

3:43 I really enjoyed hitting a target.

3:46 And, you know, the Marine Corps is like all around mission

3:49 accomplishment.

3:50 And so when given a target to hit,

3:52 it was like, that's my objective in life

3:55 is to hit that target.

3:56 And so sales was just a natural fit.

3:58 And I'm sure there's plenty of people

3:59 with military backgrounds that are in sales

4:01 and they're just like, absolutely, this fits me.

4:04 So from there, got into tech sales,

4:08 but not the tech sales you might think

4:10 as an entry-level rep.

4:11 I started doing sales for Sprint,

4:13 which was the company that T-Mobile acquired.

4:17 They're a mobile phone provider, you know,

4:19 back in the day, I'm probably showing my age.

4:22 So working in a retail store from there,

4:25 went over to one of their partners

4:28 and started doing public sector sales,

4:30 which was one of the first digital video systems.

4:33 You know, like you would see on COPS, the TV show,

4:36 they went from having the VHS tapes in their cars

4:38 to actually doing digital video systems.

4:42 And that was a pretty massive step up

4:45 in terms of like who you're selling to.

4:48 You're talking to police chiefs,

4:50 you're talking to sheriffs.

4:52 And I learned so much around selling.

4:55 There's RFP process, I didn't even know existed.

4:58 It was just like a complete headfirst dive

5:02 into the unknown of what does grownup sales really look like.

5:08 And super small company based here in Kansas City.

5:13 And one of the technical, the CTO left,

5:17 and he went to a company called GE.

5:22 And they were- - I think I've heard of them.

5:24 They do a few things, right? - They only do a few things.

5:28 And so GE had a rail arm to it.

5:32 And Caterpillar had started trying to get

5:34 into the rail business and they acquired,

5:37 they were acquiring basically supplemental businesses

5:40 in the rail industry so that they could begin

5:43 selling locomotives to the big class one railroads

5:47 in the United States.

5:48 This CTO that I had worked with was challenged

5:51 after this acquisition from GE to spin up a sales team,

5:56 a technical leader challenged to spin up a sales team.

5:59 And so he called me and he said,

6:01 do you know anyone that might be interested?

6:03 And I thought, damn, yes, I am.

6:06 I'm absolutely interested.

6:07 Let's go try something new.

6:09 Let's continue to kind of see what this enterprise game

6:12 can really look like.

6:13 And so inherited a territory at Caterpillar's rail division

6:19 that was doing around 500K a year.

6:22 Super, super small in the grand scheme of things.

6:25 They were actually selling declassified

6:29 heat seeking missile technology

6:31 to put bearing detect systems all throughout rail lines

6:35 in North America in order to predict

6:38 when a derailment might happen.

6:40 So there was a hardware piece to that business.

6:44 There was a software piece to that business.

6:46 There was a lot of meeting individuals

6:49 that had been in the rail industry for their entire careers.

6:55 It was just, again, another headfirst.

6:57 I don't know how this is gonna work type of moment

7:00 in my career that then I had the fortunate

7:06 ability to learn from just a lot of people

7:08 who were willing to kind of take me under their wing,

7:10 teach me, they saw something in me.

7:13 Maybe it was that mission accomplishment attitude,

7:15 but that is what the catalyst was

7:17 that got me into enterprise sales

7:19 and really learning how to drive toward a goal,

7:22 carry a number, don't take no for an answer,

7:26 whatever is needed in order to hit the target,

7:28 which is kind of still with me today.

7:31 - And I think sometimes people,

7:33 I think make an assumption that,

7:35 oh, that's totally different than maybe SaaS

7:38 or software sales, but I would argue not at all.

7:42 I think it's still, it's a B2B process.

7:44 You gotta build a business case.

7:45 It's multi-threading, it's networking.

7:47 It's not a transactional sale.

7:49 There's a relationship and partnership involved

7:51 in the whole thing.

7:53 So I think that probably teed you up really well

7:57 for the next step, if I'm not mistaken.

8:01 - It did, it did.

8:02 I think there's a, in the enterprise space,

8:05 there's probably even more so of an expectation

8:08 of owning the result with the customer,

8:12 because especially in something like there's not,

8:15 railroads don't just grow on trees.

8:17 So you don't burn relationships.

8:19 If you sell something, it better damn well deliver.

8:21 And I know that's not always the case

8:23 in a lot of B2B sales, but that's very much the case

8:26 in like the higher end enterprise sales,

8:29 the relationships and your ability

8:30 to follow through are paramount.

8:32 And so that's probably one of those underlying traits

8:35 of like, here at PushPress, our customers are so critical

8:39 to like, we view them as being the lifeblood

8:42 of the organization.

8:42 If they're not the center of every decision,

8:44 if we don't drive results for them,

8:46 you can't grow the company.

8:48 And so same thing, but now it's just expanded.

8:52 And I think the way that I ended up getting even

8:54 to PushPress from there, if I wanna maybe take a step back

8:57 and expand on the story for a minute,

8:59 when I was at CAP, I was having back pain from the military.

9:04 I stumbled into a CrossFit gym that was brand new.

9:07 This was like right as CrossFit was hitting the market

9:09 and people had no idea what it was.

9:11 They had a mascot that was everywhere

9:13 that people criticized.

9:14 It was Puke the clown.

9:16 This was like the OG CrossFit days.

9:21 And people were in baggy shorts.

9:23 It was a whole thing.

9:25 So I was having back pain.

9:27 My wife said, you know, you should go and try

9:30 this new CrossFit affiliate that is opening up

9:32 down the street.

9:33 If you're going to be miserable,

9:36 you may as well be miserable and fit.

9:38 And I thought, okay, you know what?

9:41 I've missed out on fitness for a while.

9:43 You're absolutely right.

9:44 I'm in pain nonstop.

9:47 I'm in.

9:48 It was about three or four months in.

9:52 The two founders of that gym, T.J. Kiblin and Brady Mora,

9:56 they got me deadlifting, squatting, moving well.

10:00 And within a few months, I was free of painkillers.

10:05 Slept through the night for the first time.

10:07 Everything immediately started to click.

10:10 I could start actually improving my physical appearance.

10:13 Next thing you know, I'm off to the races feeling good

10:16 and have never had back pain ever since then.

10:19 And about a year after I started there,

10:23 they came to me and they said,

10:24 hey, I think we're going to have to close the gym.

10:26 And it was like just a punch to the gut.

10:30 I was like, you guys can't, you guys saved me.

10:33 You cannot close this gym.

10:35 And so we worked through like, well, how can I help?

10:39 What can I do to give you a hand?

10:41 And we worked out a deal where I came on just to run

10:45 the business side of things for them.

10:47 And that's how I ended up meeting Dan, Chris and Brian,

10:51 the three founders of Push Press.

10:53 They were in Los Angeles and we ended up working out a deal.

10:58 We can go into that detail if you're curious.

10:59 But yeah, I ended up working out a deal

11:00 for me to leave Caterpillar, believe it or not.

11:03 Somehow, probably the best sale ever,

11:05 besides getting my wife to marry me,

11:07 was talking her into letting me leave

11:09 an enterprise sales job to go take a bet

11:11 on this little startup out of three guys in LA

11:13 that I had only met once.

11:16 - I'm always curious in that moment.

11:19 And by the way, when I started Lean Scale,

11:21 I started in 2021.

11:23 You better believe I had a full PowerPoint presentation

11:26 for my wife as to why I needed to do this.

11:28 She's like, wait, 'cause at that point,

11:31 I had jumped from a few SaaS companies.

11:33 I've been doing really, really well.

11:34 I had an amazing exit at one of them.

11:36 It was really good for everyone on the team there.

11:39 Great relationships with VCs.

11:41 I was being like flown in as the RevOps operator

11:45 for all of these really, really exciting companies.

11:48 And she's like, so you're gonna leave all of that.

11:51 And I haven't shared this with too many people.

11:55 And I don't talk about this moment a lot,

11:58 but I actually had an offer to be the COO

12:01 of one of the companies.

12:03 It was a big job and something

12:04 that I always kind of aspired to.

12:06 And I had to do the same thing.

12:08 I was like, hey, yeah, we're gonna leave all that.

12:10 Lean Scale, how much revenue are we making?

12:11 Yeah, nothing yet.

12:12 How many kids do we have?

12:13 One, one more on the way soon.

12:16 Okay, and wife's not working either.

12:18 It's like, okay, so you're gonna bet everything on this?

12:21 I said, absolutely.

12:22 But yes, biggest sales rep I had as well.

12:25 What conviction did you have though?

12:27 Because there's gotta be something that was like

12:29 so compelling that made you make that move.

12:34 - It was twofold.

12:38 The territory at Cat, I ended up growing

12:40 to over $20 million a year

12:43 between both hardware and software sales.

12:46 So I had developed, I think, a strong enough reputation

12:48 that it didn't feel like a one-way door.

12:51 It felt like if I went and I was gone for a year

12:53 and this thing plummeted and went to nothing,

12:56 then I could go crawling back

12:58 and everyone would be like, hey, welcome back.

13:00 We're glad to have you, we missed you.

13:01 That's honestly how it felt.

13:03 So it was like exit, but do it, maintain the relationship.

13:07 So again, it didn't feel as risky at the time.

13:12 The other piece is I, as a user of the product,

13:18 I thought that one of its key value props

13:21 was actually that it was only really good at one thing,

13:24 which was being a single application for a gym owner.

13:28 They didn't try to be everything that a gym owner need.

13:31 At the time in those very early days,

13:33 we did not market ourselves as an all-in-one.

13:37 We in fact believed strongly in the integration framework.

13:41 And the thing that it did well,

13:42 the billing and the scheduling,

13:43 it absolutely nailed with more simplicity

13:46 than any other tool in the market.

13:48 And I remember looking in the mirror,

13:53 trying to determine whether or not this was the right move.

13:56 And I was, I had a moment where I'm like,

13:59 if you're as good as you think you are at selling,

14:03 there is no risk here.

14:06 You've evaluated all the tools on the market.

14:07 So if you're really that damn good,

14:10 then it's an automatic yes,

14:12 because the only thing this company is missing is you.

14:14 So it was like a little bit of like,

14:16 are you full of it or not moment?

14:18 And that was the push off the bridge.

14:23 - Yeah, not to bring it back to our wrestling background,

14:26 but it feels like the moment the whistle blows.

14:29 It's like, okay, now it's game time.

14:31 - It's time.

14:32 - So, and all the thought, the stress,

14:35 everything, the anxiety coming up now,

14:37 but when you're there, you get in the zone.

14:39 So what happened after you jumped in?

14:42 How did you approach it?

14:44 What did those early days look like?

14:47 - Yeah, the early days were a lot of whatever you have to do

14:50 in order to get product market fit.

14:51 It was cold calling, dropping into gyms

14:54 that I had never visited before,

14:58 driving to gyms in St. Louis or Tulsa.

15:03 It was basically just like,

15:05 what are all the different ways

15:06 that you can get in touch with gym owners,

15:09 build your contact list,

15:11 try to understand what the market needs

15:14 as much as possible.

15:15 And at the same time, it was set up to CRM,

15:18 understand the funnel,

15:21 and it's the three founders and me,

15:23 and they're in LA together.

15:24 And so they were working out of Torrance Training Lab,

15:27 which was the gym that Dan owned at the time.

15:29 And they would set up a, we had a Google Hangout,

15:33 and I'm the only guy in Kansas City on an island,

15:36 and there's a TV, and I can see them,

15:38 and they're coding away in the gym,

15:40 and there's weights banging,

15:42 and they're literally in a gym office,

15:45 a CrossFit gym office,

15:46 and there's people yelling,

15:48 and they would go to lunch on Pacific time.

15:51 I'm still working on Kansas City time.

15:53 And it was a lot of just like,

15:55 what are you guys building?

15:56 Oh, you're building this?

15:57 Cool, I think I can sell that.

16:00 Why did you build it that way?

16:01 There were some of those advantages,

16:02 I think, in the early days of understanding

16:06 how we, as a team, were thinking about

16:09 attacking the market, that I look back,

16:12 and it's like, those were things that I didn't understand

16:15 how important they were at the time.

16:18 And if we wouldn't have had that,

16:20 just that little Google Hangout,

16:22 I don't think we would have been as successful.

16:24 Obviously, if you're in a physical environment office space,

16:28 then you have that advantage.

16:29 But just being remote, we never,

16:31 if it wasn't for that one little thing,

16:33 I don't think we would have,

16:34 which is funny to look back on.

16:37 I love the humble beginnings during that time.

16:42 And I think I can just picture that,

16:44 them coding next to Wade slamming all over the place.

16:49 So from there, there had to be a point where it felt like,

16:52 okay, we're actually getting some traction here.

16:55 Maybe your wife is starting to gain

16:56 a little bit of confidence in this decision that you made.

16:59 Where did you start really getting aggressive

17:02 and really pushing and trying to accelerate the growth?

17:08 - Yeah, it was probably, oh gosh.

17:13 The first probably year and a half, two years maybe,

17:20 I'm trying to rewind my brain there as best I can.

17:22 Year and a half, two years was largely about

17:25 understand the market, what are we building?

17:28 And there are some big behemoths in this space,

17:30 like MindBody, which everyone knows,

17:32 which were light years ahead of us.

17:35 And there were companies that had started building

17:37 these all-in-one tools.

17:39 And so it was a little bit of like,

17:40 what's the market really gonna need?

17:42 If you're not familiar with the group fitness market,

17:45 CrossFit really helped lay the foundation

17:49 for what exists today in like the Orange Theories

17:53 and the Barry's Bootcamps and the F45s.

17:56 There wasn't a big flock to group fitness.

17:59 Yoga existed and Pilates certainly existed

18:03 and that's why MindBody thrived in those early days.

18:06 But otherwise, the CrossFit space

18:09 was really the pioneer there

18:10 and they were the grungy, we don't use software crowd.

18:15 And so it was a very immature B2B market

18:20 where the customer had low margins,

18:25 not a high tech aptitude.

18:27 And so trying to boil down like, what is your value prop?

18:31 How do you demo this software?

18:34 It took a good amount of time for the industry to go,

18:38 oh yeah, maybe we could use some tools

18:41 to actually help us understand billing

18:43 rather than trying to chase people down for cash,

18:45 which in 2026, this even sounds crazy to say,

18:49 but that's how long we've been at the game.

18:51 And I guess maybe in how late the market was

18:53 to actually exist and then mature over time.

18:57 - When you say cash, you're talking physical cash.

18:59 - Literally physical cash, yes, yes.

19:01 - I didn't know they still made that, but yeah.

19:06 - So, but that was the kind of the genesis

19:10 of the first several years and then it was like,

19:11 well, we only have one or two people in support

19:15 and it's figuring out the hiring

19:18 and it's figuring out the staffing

19:19 and in your capacity models across what do you need where

19:22 and you've only got a few people and they're all remote.

19:25 And so how do you get these people together?

19:27 And it was just, it took us a long time to figure out

19:31 how to build a SaaS company, longer than most.

19:37 And I think a big part of that is we grew,

19:39 we all came from within the fitness industry.

19:42 We didn't come from SaaS looking for a problem to solve.

19:45 We came from the industry with a problem and said,

19:48 I think we can probably solve this

19:50 if we put our heads together.

19:52 Dan will tell you this, if you were to ask him,

19:55 it was a much bigger thing

19:57 than he ever thought it would be.

20:00 He thought it was like a simple coding project.

20:01 He'd be good to go.

20:02 And it's just grown into like this massive piece of software

20:06 in order to support small businesses all around the world.

20:09 - I actually think that's where the best ideas come from.

20:12 People who have deep, deep empathy for the problem

20:16 that their customers are going through.

20:19 I'm curious 'cause maybe you were a little bit forward thinking

20:22 and how you would operate maybe one of those gyms.

20:24 Was there an inflection point or point in time

20:27 or a way that you changed the messaging

20:30 and the value proposition for a gym owner

20:32 where it felt like, oh, this is when it clicked

20:35 and people started really resonating

20:36 with what we're trying to do here.

20:40 - I think ease of use has always been that.

20:43 And I don't know that we recognized it in the early days

20:47 or we didn't say it that way.

20:49 And it feels like, in some ways,

20:51 it feels like a little hollow of a value prop.

20:54 But if you just think that like at the end of the day,

20:56 a gym owner wants to be on the coaching floor

20:59 with their members, delivering a fitness result,

21:02 and they don't wanna have to clickety-clack in a software.

21:06 They almost want the software to disappear.

21:08 I just want to do this thing,

21:11 which is to make people in my local community healthier.

21:14 Then ease of use becomes the most critical piece

21:18 of the entire stack for them,

21:20 especially in a world where the legacy systems

21:23 have been around for decades.

21:24 And they, at least back then, they look like Windows 98.

21:28 Again, I'm showing my age, but they look archaic.

21:31 And so they were bloated, tons of toggles everywhere,

21:35 couldn't figure them out.

21:37 It's just not friendly to the coach

21:39 who needs to have their attention on the member

21:40 that's in front of them, not on the piece of software.

21:43 - Yeah, I think sometimes that's what happens though.

21:45 When you're a little early, you just have to kind of endure

21:48 and make it to that point

21:49 where it starts to become obvious for everybody else.

21:51 And then once you start getting that adoption,

21:54 you could start fine-tuning that messaging

21:55 and getting in front of people that you need.

21:57 - Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

22:00 - One thing you mentioned in our prep call

22:02 that I thought was really interesting,

22:04 speaks to my heart as a RevOps professional,

22:07 is you regret not hiring RevOps earlier in the cycle.

22:15 Can you walk me through the pains that you felt,

22:18 when you wish you would have hired RevOps,

22:21 and what you think you could have done

22:22 if you made that investment earlier?

22:24 - You know, one of the things that I really,

22:29 really appreciate about our CEO, Dan Wymera,

22:33 and what he built is he's always been a champion for,

22:37 we don't know what we don't know.

22:39 That includes me at the top as a CEO,

22:42 and therefore we all need to be willing to learn,

22:45 and we should all have coaches and mentors.

22:47 We serve an industry of coaches,

22:50 coaching people to get healthier,

22:52 and we need to do the same

22:54 when it comes to growing a company.

22:56 That regret actually comes from some of the early discussions

22:59 I had with other leadership, sales leadership,

23:03 VPs of sales, CROs, trying to figure out who I wanted

23:07 to lead me in coaching and learn from.

23:11 And one of the individuals that I spoke with said,

23:14 you need to invest in RevOps immediately,

23:17 way sooner than you think.

23:19 And I didn't listen.

23:22 And in hindsight, I'm like, oh, you're such an idiot.

23:24 Why didn't you do it?

23:25 And there's been so many things.

23:27 It's like data fluency,

23:29 having someone to be an early warning signal,

23:32 someone to partner with in sales comp.

23:36 Like since we've invested heavily into RevOps,

23:39 so obviously for a while now,

23:44 the amount of mental bandwidth that I've received back

23:49 that they take so much off of my plate,

23:52 I think as the business grows,

23:54 it's just impossible to mentally be everywhere.

23:57 I almost look at it as like,

23:59 look at your financial model

24:01 and it's 2,000 rows and a million columns

24:05 and they have the ability to stand up

24:08 all of the tooling and data

24:10 to where you don't have to study every cell

24:12 as if your life depends on it.

24:13 Because at the end of the day,

24:16 there's a million ways to grow a company

24:19 and there are some underlying metrics that you'll miss

24:22 unless you have a partner that understands

24:24 how you think, where the leverage is at

24:27 and RevOps has done that for me in spades

24:30 and I feel like I waded through the mud for several years,

24:35 choosing maybe investing in other areas

24:39 because they could close a deal

24:41 or they could support a customer

24:43 rather than they could support me

24:46 and the entire go-to-market team.

24:48 - I'm curious 'cause I always feel like

24:50 it's such a struggle at the early phase

24:52 and even though I know the value of RevOps

24:55 to its core down to every detail,

24:58 I understand where it can be difficult to trade

25:01 maybe another quota carrier or somebody doing marketing.

25:05 From your perspective, if you were to go back,

25:08 and I know everyone will have a little bit

25:10 of a different story, but if you were to go back,

25:12 when would you have invested in RevOps?

25:15 - Before we raised our seed round,

25:17 I'd probably have someone who was way more data fluent

25:25 and I think RevOps is changing,

25:27 which it could be a whole 'nother podcast,

25:29 but definitely someone who could help build

25:32 the infrastructure to make a sales team really click,

25:36 understand attribution.

25:38 I would say I'd probably start more

25:40 on the sales and marketing upside of things

25:43 in the early days because distribution is everything.

25:47 Once you have product market fit

25:49 and so having a strong partner that's really cut their teeth

25:52 in those areas and can help you,

25:54 will only amplify the output of both your sales team

25:59 and your marketing team.

26:00 - No, it makes a ton of sense.

26:02 Do you have a sense of how many reps

26:05 maybe you had on the team?

26:06 Is it like, get two reps,

26:09 then get some sales ops, marketing ops in the door?

26:11 Is it, hey, bring that on before you even bring on reps

26:14 and you just run those front facing functions

26:16 for a little bit?

26:17 - I think if you're gonna operate lean,

26:20 and especially in today's world of AI,

26:22 I think you can probably wait till you have a couple of reps.

26:28 Certainly the benefits of figuring it out yourself,

26:31 like I had never set up a vertical SaaS sales comp plan,

26:34 so there was a fair amount of studying there

26:36 and if you would have been on my team,

26:38 it would have been a completely different story.

26:40 I would have been like, hey, whatever you think is best,

26:41 Anthony, like let's make some adjustments and you know,

26:45 or whatever, but I think there's some benefits

26:48 to figuring it out yourself to some degree,

26:50 but if you let that go on too long,

26:52 then you're just doing the organization a disservice

26:56 because you're not doing the job

26:58 of leading the revenue function,

27:00 you're doing the job of rev ops.

27:01 And so there's probably a signal

27:05 if I sat down and thought about it,

27:06 but certainly if you're spending too much time,

27:09 and maybe this is the signal,

27:10 if you're spending too much time learning

27:12 about infrastructure or how to do the job,

27:16 then you need to bring in someone

27:18 and you're probably past due bringing in someone

27:21 at that point.

27:23 - I think it makes a ton of sense.

27:25 I'm curious, we don't have to spend a whole hour on it,

27:28 but I would like your perspective.

27:30 You mentioned rev ops is changing.

27:33 How do you think it's changing and why?

27:37 - I think rev ops today is probably shifting more

27:42 towards the infrastructure that allows the entire GTM org

27:47 to function with more leverage than they have in the past.

27:51 That's actually no different of a mission

27:52 than they had before,

27:54 but the way that they execute that mission is different.

27:57 I think about moving forward

28:00 where everyone is either operating their own agent

28:05 or they are building tools themselves.

28:08 Maybe it's dashboarding themselves.

28:10 So rather than rev ops actually leading

28:13 the creation of those tools,

28:15 I think they're gonna be building the guardrails

28:17 that allows everyone else to play in the sandbox

28:19 as the experts in their craft.

28:22 And so I just think it looks different.

28:23 The mission doesn't change,

28:24 but then how they go about the mission

28:26 is probably different.

28:27 They're probably, I know the term like go to market engineer

28:31 has been thrown around for years,

28:32 but I actually think it's more about understanding

28:35 the technical infrastructure

28:36 that allows people to play in the sandbox

28:38 than it is actually building the castle in the sandbox

28:41 and then having everyone look at the castle.

28:44 - Yeah, I think we're seeing that too.

28:46 And I agree, mission's the same.

28:48 Get the highest yield out of the go to market team

28:50 as possible, give visibility to the team

28:53 so you can make excellent decisions

28:54 and increase the likelihood that your bets will pay off

28:59 and you'll put capital

28:59 where you're gonna get the most return.

29:01 But it is getting more technical

29:03 and the tools that are available

29:05 are getting more dynamic and interesting.

29:08 When I started LeanScale in 2021,

29:11 I'd say 60 to 70% of the work was in Salesforce.

29:17 And then a little bit of HubSpot,

29:19 maybe you're plugging in Zoom info for some things

29:21 and an outreach for sequencing.

29:23 So either your tech stack is a handful of tools.

29:26 We work with some companies

29:27 that have 30 plus go to market tools,

29:29 point solutions for every single little thing.

29:31 They're running AI workflows across the entire stack.

29:33 We're not talking about just managing the data in the CRM,

29:36 but we're talking about managing a data warehouse

29:38 so you can run agents on top of it.

29:40 I mean, the depth and breadth of RevOps

29:43 has just expanded tremendously in the last five years.

29:47 And I don't see that slowing down.

29:50 - I don't either.

29:50 I actually think it's a really interesting place

29:54 for your more technical sellers to look at.

30:00 If you have a nap for, you wanna experiment,

30:03 you wanna tinker and you also know selling.

30:08 RevOps has always been like an adjacent path

30:11 for individuals in sales or in marketing,

30:14 but if you find yourself really liking

30:17 to be on the forefront of technology

30:19 and you know your craft

30:20 and you can be a dangerous individual

30:22 in this new generation, it's kinda cool to see.

30:26 - I think so too.

30:27 And I think if you have that combo of,

30:29 hey, go carry a bag.

30:31 Go see exactly what it takes to go hit a number

30:33 and own it and be accountable for it.

30:36 Then spend some time learning the systems,

30:39 building its scale.

30:40 I think it's a really strong combo

30:42 if you aspire to be a CRO one day.

30:44 And I really think it requires both.

30:47 I think it's very tough.

30:49 A pure RevOps person coming up from like an analyst,

30:53 a systems admin to running RevOps and doing that,

30:56 I think you'll really struggle in a position

30:58 where you have to be accountable for a number

31:01 and bring it to a board every quarter.

31:04 And then likewise, I think if you've only carried a bag

31:06 and you're not familiar with like

31:09 how you can get more leverage out of the system,

31:11 I think a CRO role is gonna be very challenging

31:12 for that person too.

31:14 So I almost think you kinda need to take some side quests

31:17 and side missions to get the full breadth of the role.

31:21 - Completely agree.

31:23 Dan and I were talking the other day

31:26 and he was saying people either need to be builders

31:30 or sellers.

31:31 And it's like, I'm thinking as a CRO,

31:35 you have to be both a builder and a seller at this point.

31:38 It's in one move in my opinion.

31:41 - It's absolutely where we're going.

31:42 You have to do both.

31:43 And that's why I think the CRO position

31:46 is the most difficult position in a company.

31:50 You have been in the role for almost a decade,

31:54 which I think is incredible.

31:56 The average tenure and lifespan of a CRO in SAS is 18 months.

32:01 And it's either because the company's not doing well,

32:03 but usually it's also, they're the first sacrificial lamb

32:06 if you don't hit a number.

32:08 And I think it's a very, very challenging role,

32:11 especially if you're working in a high-growth company.

32:14 Another thing I think gives the CRO some leverage

32:17 and I think it's overlooked.

32:21 Sam Jacobs, founder of Pavilion,

32:22 talks about this quite a bit too.

32:24 The partnership between the CRO and the CFO

32:28 and having some financial literacy

32:30 to be able to work together,

32:32 I think is another angle that's really,

32:34 really important to round out the role.

32:38 - It's one that I think I understood the impact

32:42 that it had in those early days.

32:43 In the early days of push press,

32:45 I built like our bottoms up model.

32:47 I built a tops down model.

32:49 I fit with you figuring out,

32:50 how are we gonna hit growth targets

32:52 to the point where, when our finance leader

32:56 joined the org and I showed her everything,

32:59 it was a lot of like, okay,

33:02 we have our crap together to some degree.

33:05 Okay, I'll take that as a compliment

33:06 that we actually weren't completely flying blind

33:10 when you get in a really strong finance leader in the seat.

33:12 But even now, and through the fundraising process,

33:16 it was critical to have financial acumen

33:18 of understanding where the company's at.

33:21 Obviously reporting to the board,

33:23 that's important to have.

33:24 I just don't know how you can do the job effectively

33:28 day in and day out,

33:29 where partnering with finance is so critical

33:32 to doing the CRO job well,

33:37 if you're not speaking the same language.

33:40 And I just don't expect them to speak

33:43 pure sales and marketing language,

33:46 which means you need to go to them.

33:48 And to that extent,

33:50 I don't know how you build comp plans without it.

33:52 And I don't know how you can launch a new campaign

33:55 without understanding, LTV to CAC, CAC payback,

33:58 what goes into each of those variables.

34:01 It's all a requirement of the job.

34:03 And I remember at one point,

34:07 whenever they rolled out the latest financial model,

34:09 it was like, oh, there's some of these terms

34:11 that I don't know as well as I should.

34:14 Or I don't know the benchmarks as well as I should.

34:17 And I made a point to every single morning,

34:19 sit down at 5 a.m., cup of coffee, look at our model,

34:23 dig into one data point.

34:26 What's the benchmarks for this?

34:27 What does good look like?

34:28 What does great look like?

34:31 What is ours?

34:32 And just spent an hour.

34:33 And I did it every single day,

34:36 until you just get to a point where you understand it all.

34:39 And then when you're in a fundraising,

34:41 when you're either you're in a pitch or you're in diligence

34:44 and there's questions being fired at you,

34:46 all the confidence in the world.

34:47 But it took that like that day in and day out studying

34:49 and work in order to get to that point.

34:52 - Man, I just love hearing what your endurance

34:57 and discipline is throughout pretty much every aspect

35:00 of your life.

35:01 I brought it up earlier.

35:05 And I think this is another amazing example of it,

35:07 but you've been in the CRO position for 10 years.

35:12 And what does it take?

35:15 What type of endurance does it take to stick to the mission,

35:22 get through adversity?

35:23 And what have some of those hardest moments been like

35:26 throughout this journey?

35:27 And how did you stay so focused?

35:32 - One of the things that the Marine Corps does,

35:34 they use an acronym for the leadership traits.

35:37 You guys can look it up.

35:38 It's called JJ Did Ty Buckle.

35:41 I won't go through all of them,

35:42 but one of the E's stands for endurance.

35:45 I actually think it's probably one of the most

35:47 underrated leadership traits, at least in a growth role,

35:51 but probably in every role.

35:52 And I'll give you an example of this actually.

35:55 You can look up Altos Ventures.

35:59 They are our lead investor in both our A round and our B

36:01 round.

36:03 I think it's altos.vc.

36:05 You can look, they wrote an article.

36:06 It's like super famous in the Valley of like

36:09 hedgehogs versus foxes.

36:11 And they invest in hedgehogs.

36:14 Hedgehogs are very much Dan, myself.

36:18 We have like little hedgehogs on our desks

36:20 and stuff like that, right?

36:21 Like, and it's people who are about the mission,

36:24 not about the just chasing an outcome.

36:30 They invest in long-term founders.

36:31 And so I think the reason I weave that in here

36:34 is because I think that's so important to having endurance

36:37 is that you have to be on the right mission.

36:41 And anytime you feel yourself wanting to quit

36:44 because it gets tough, you might be on the,

36:47 it might be tough or you might be on the wrong mission.

36:50 And I don't think in all these years,

36:52 I don't think I've ever questioned the mission.

36:54 I've never questioned helping gym owners because my life,

36:58 I credit Brady and TJ and CrossFit to saving my life

37:04 and making me a renewed adult human and functional.

37:08 And so the mission will always be this

37:11 until I feel like running a gym is no longer a struggle

37:15 and that the gym owners are able to serve their community

37:18 in a way that's profitable, gives them a happy home life

37:22 and is not a drain or a chore like it is

37:26 and has been for years.

37:28 And so the endurance piece of it though comes into like,

37:32 you do have a number to turn in.

37:34 You do have a target to hit.

37:36 Leading people is tough and growing a SaaS company

37:39 is insanely difficult and there's gonna be those times

37:42 where system goes down on a Sunday and you're like,

37:47 oh my God, what are we doing?

37:50 And you're just trying to enjoy lunch with the family

37:54 because maybe you've been on the road for a week straight

37:57 and now you're back at work.

37:59 And so if you can't, I think, look at the mission and go,

38:03 no, this is still important and I'm still locked into it,

38:07 even when it gets tough, you can't be there

38:10 for the long haul.

38:12 And I guess maybe you shouldn't be, I don't know.

38:15 The endurance piece is mission critical

38:17 or is absolutely paramount in my opinion.

38:21 - Hi, I'm curious too with your long tenure.

38:25 And I mean, I can tell it takes an immense amount

38:30 of endurance to go through where you were

38:33 in the beginning to where you are now.

38:35 But one thing that I love is this is actually

38:37 a very interesting case study of how GoToMarket has changed

38:41 because you actually have a lot of control

38:43 over the variables, same company, same mission,

38:45 same ICP, relatively similar solution, I'm assuming.

38:51 I obviously like iterating and advancing over time,

38:53 but solving a similar problem.

38:56 I'm curious your perspective on how GoToMarket has changed

39:01 from 10 years ago to today.

39:04 And when I say that, I mean, how do you build pipeline?

39:08 How are you finding sellers?

39:10 How are you training sellers?

39:12 What techniques, tools, methodologies are you using?

39:16 What's some of the wisdom that's maybe held true?

39:19 And then what are some of the things

39:20 that have adjusted over time?

39:23 - Yeah, I think generally there's a lot of,

39:27 you have to be nimble or you have to pay attention

39:30 to what, where does your market pay attention to?

39:36 And how does that change?

39:38 What are the latest, I don't wanna say trends

39:40 'cause that would be a bad way to phrase it,

39:41 but like there was a time period

39:43 where I couldn't get outbound to work

39:46 and the majority of our leads were inbound.

39:50 And we didn't know how to do paid ads.

39:52 And then we found out how to do paid ads.

39:54 And it's like, there's a time period

39:57 where Meta had amazing ROI and you gotta be able

40:00 to pounce on that when you have it

40:02 and when you have the opportunity,

40:04 but you shouldn't be beholden to one channel.

40:06 So then you're looking for like,

40:08 well, what are the other channels

40:09 and what didn't work last time?

40:10 So there's like this constant experimentation

40:14 that I think needs to be done in order to,

40:18 or capture attention enough to actually convert it

40:21 to something, a customer, something meaningful.

40:24 And so when you ask like, how do we find sellers?

40:27 Even that's changed.

40:28 And it changed because early we hired gym owners.

40:32 We hired our clients, which is a gift and a curse.

40:37 One of the gifts are, they know the industry insanely well.

40:41 They know your system very, very well.

40:45 They have near zero ramp time because of those things

40:50 and they have a strong network.

40:51 So all great advantages for getting early traction.

40:56 They generally are entrepreneurs, which is a benefit,

41:00 but they don't like staying within tightly confined space

41:04 and executing in the way

41:05 'cause they're an entrepreneur for a reason.

41:08 There also may not be natural sellers or polished sellers.

41:13 So that can be a little difficult at times,

41:17 but thankfully in our space, everyone believes in coaching.

41:21 And so that was maybe a unique advantage

41:24 that we had at the time.

41:26 And so we leaned heavily into that in those early years

41:28 and we couldn't get outbound to work.

41:31 But now we're at the stage in our company

41:32 where we have a very strong outbound motion,

41:36 very strong cold SDR outbound motion that,

41:40 God, I wish we would have landed on forever ago.

41:43 And our SDR team and our SDR leader

41:46 have done an amazing job.

41:49 And now that's the future sales talent,

41:52 account executive talent that we have in the team.

41:55 And I can't see a world where I would hire

41:58 anyone that's not on that team to be an account executive.

42:01 I don't think I'll bring anyone in external

42:04 to sit straight to the account executive seat ever.

42:08 - I love that.

42:09 I love the bullpen and then giving people a path.

42:11 And I'm sure there's a level of commitment that you can get

42:17 when you have given those people opportunities

42:20 as they've moved along rather than trying to find out

42:23 or find mercenaries to bring into to be AEs.

42:28 And I think it's a testament to the culture

42:31 that you're building as well.

42:34 - A hundred percent.

42:34 I think the way that you find sellers,

42:39 and it may change again, right?

42:41 Like certainly, you could maybe fast forward time,

42:47 see a world where AI voice agents ruin outbound.

42:54 They always say marketers ruin everything, right?

42:56 So we ruin outbound because we flood the market

42:59 with AI voice agents.

43:00 And then all of a sudden outbound is dead.

43:02 Now you have to solve two problems.

43:04 How do I replace this channel?

43:05 And how do I replace my bench of sales talent?

43:09 So that's generally how I look at solving

43:15 almost every GTM motion is there's a series of factors

43:19 that you have to kind of untangle,

43:21 solve one, rinse and repeat.

43:26 - You mentioned something in our prep session

43:28 that I have completely stolen

43:32 and used in all of my leadership meetings.

43:35 So thank you.

43:36 I'll pay you the royalties

43:37 and you should get a nice check from that.

43:40 But throughout your time,

43:42 there are many bets and decisions and experiments

43:46 and things that you have to make judgments on.

43:49 You're not gonna have perfect data.

43:51 You might have data as a signal,

43:52 but there's no guarantees and go to market

43:56 and there's no guarantees in SaaS.

43:58 And the phrase that I cannot stop repeating

44:02 is what needs to be true.

44:06 I would love to hear the origin of that

44:10 and how you have used that throughout your role.

44:15 - You know, the origin,

44:17 I think I've probably first uttered it a year ago,

44:23 but I feel like I've always thought that way,

44:25 which is you see a problem

44:28 and maybe this is where it came from.

44:30 It's like you would see a problem in growth

44:32 and it would be like,

44:34 well, you've only got a hundred demos

44:39 being booked of your software in a month.

44:41 And what needs to be true for us to get that to 200?

44:46 And the inverse way is go,

44:47 how do I get it to 200, right?

44:49 But how do I get it to 200?

44:51 For whatever reason,

44:52 those words don't open my imagination

44:56 the way that what needs to be true for us to have 200 does.

45:00 And so now all of a sudden

45:03 you can just start throwing everything at the wall.

45:07 Everything.

45:07 It's like, well, certainly if it was $0,

45:11 we'd have a lot of demand.

45:13 Okay, that's one.

45:14 Doesn't mean that everything you throw at the wall

45:16 should stick,

45:18 but it just lists out everything.

45:20 I mean, it's essentially first principles thinking,

45:23 but it really is just a way, I think,

45:25 to force yourself to unlock your imagination

45:29 to all of the potential that could exist.

45:33 And it's so easy to get like the narrow focus

45:37 in any organization around.

45:42 Go accomplish this.

45:43 And you immediately go to,

45:45 okay, I have this box of things.

45:48 I have the toys that I have to build this thing

45:52 are confined into this box.

45:55 So let me go accomplish that,

45:56 but only with these pieces instead of the inverse,

46:00 which is just what needs to be true

46:01 for this mission to be accomplished.

46:03 And you go, well, the box doesn't exist.

46:06 The toys don't exist.

46:08 Imagine the toys.

46:09 And you can build from infinite possibilities, right?

46:14 So I think to me the reason why we've used it so much,

46:19 especially recently at Push Press,

46:22 and the reason why it's always top of mind today

46:26 more than ever is because AI has actually allowed

46:30 even that imagination and that creativity

46:33 to come to life in a way that it didn't three years ago

46:37 or before where maybe it did have constraints.

46:40 And in order to do something,

46:41 it needed to go through engineering or something else,

46:45 but now everyone can be a builder.

46:47 So now what's the excuse?

46:51 So if you're not thinking that way,

46:54 I don't know how you get anything done.

46:56 - I don't take you as a person

46:57 who gave yourself many excuses in the past,

46:59 but I do also feel like the ceiling of what's possible

47:03 has just been completely lifted.

47:07 And for people like you mentioned,

47:09 hey, maybe there were some barriers.

47:11 I'm not a developer.

47:12 I wasn't even a very good Salesforce admin.

47:14 I needed some systems admins just to make RevOps work.

47:18 But now we can build applications, build systems,

47:22 even just getting your ideas on paper.

47:24 Like one of my favorite things to do

47:26 is just whisper flow into a giant Google Doc

47:30 and just be like,

47:31 can you turn this into something that makes sense?

47:35 So there really are no excuses now

47:37 and you have access to the most powerful technology

47:42 that's ever been built and you can build it.

47:45 You can do it today.

47:46 - Absolutely, absolutely.

47:48 The other thing about that statement

47:50 that I think has resonated in our organization,

47:54 I think it tears down some of the pointedness

47:59 that like, can you go do this?

48:01 Can you go do more might bring.

48:03 So this actually came up the other day.

48:05 One of the members on our team said,

48:08 we can get this done probably April, late April, early May.

48:14 And it's like, that's an eternity in today's age.

48:20 And so rather than say like,

48:22 hey, can you figure out a way to just move it forward?

48:25 Like figure out a way to get it done in January,

48:28 which is almost an indictment on the work

48:33 that was done to put the previous date out there.

48:37 And instead, what needs to be true

48:40 for us to have it done by the end of the year?

48:44 If you tell me it's a million dollars,

48:47 that might be okay,

48:49 depending on whatever the initiative is.

48:51 If you tell me it's gonna take 10 people,

48:53 you can tell me it's gonna take infinite cloud credits.

48:56 Whatever it is.

48:57 And then as an organization,

48:59 we can at least have an open and honest discussion

49:01 around is it worth that?

49:03 But show me that you've gone through the thinking,

49:06 not just of what you have to play with,

49:08 which might legit be,

49:10 if I only confined you to using these things,

49:14 then maybe April's an acceptable timeframe.

49:17 But if it's really the biggest bottleneck to our growth

49:19 and it's really that important,

49:21 then put it out there and let finance and our CEO,

49:26 like let other people come to the table and go,

49:29 you know what, I'm in.

49:31 That's what it takes to get it done.

49:32 Damn right, let's do it.

49:34 But you gotta invite that conversation.

49:35 I think you gotta do it in a way that opens up creativity

49:37 and doesn't stifle it.

49:42 - The most memorable example of this I have in my career,

49:47 I was head of RevOps for a company called Email Edge,

49:50 CEO, founder, Ray.

49:53 Ray's a tough dude.

49:57 He has very high expectations.

50:00 He has no appetite for mediocrity and very, very ambitious,

50:06 which is probably why he built a company

50:08 that had a half a billion dollar exit.

50:12 But I was head of RevOps to that company.

50:14 I was in charge of building the operating plan,

50:18 the growth model.

50:19 And I remember our head of sales or head of marketing

50:23 or head of customer success at the time.

50:24 We all got in the room or like,

50:26 this is what we think we can do next year.

50:27 This is the plan, this is where we can go.

50:30 Go to an offsite meeting, present it to Ray,

50:32 and he's like angry.

50:34 He's like, it's not ambitious, it's nothing.

50:36 We can't do that.

50:37 We need to be able to double again.

50:38 At this point, we were at 20 million in ARR.

50:41 We're like, we cannot conceive a way to go

50:45 from 20 to 40 in one year.

50:47 Like, what are you talking about?

50:50 We just kind of went from I think 12 to 20

50:53 at this point in time.

50:54 So how are we gonna do that all over again?

50:57 And we had a couple of meetings with him

51:00 and I started to get frustrated

51:03 and it almost felt like this weird Mr. Miyagi moment.

51:05 I was like, you know what, fine.

51:07 Ray, you wanna know how crazy your idea

51:09 of doubling is this year?

51:10 I'm gonna show you exactly what it's gonna take

51:13 and I'm gonna show you that this is the stupidest idea

51:16 you've ever had.

51:17 So if you wanna get to 40 million,

51:19 you're gonna need this many reps.

51:20 We're gonna have to convert it this rate.

51:21 You're gonna have to build this pipeline.

51:22 The pipeline needs to come in right now.

51:24 We're gonna need to activate these channels.

51:26 Churn's gonna have to be here.

51:27 And it's like, see Ray, it's impossible.

51:30 And he goes, this is everything I've been hoping for.

51:35 (laughing)

51:37 I was like, what did I just do?

51:41 - You just did it.

51:43 - I was like, oh, this is it.

51:45 And I didn't have the words for it,

51:46 but the what needs to be true.

51:50 That's exactly where my mind was going.

51:52 Like, okay, like it may sound ridiculous.

51:55 Like, hey, Ray, you gotta hire 200 salespeople by January

51:59 or else we ain't getting there.

52:01 Fine, okay, well, let's start with that.

52:03 And then if we need to pare that down.

52:05 But then I love how it moves the conversation,

52:07 just like you mentioned, to the inputs.

52:10 Let's argue about the inputs.

52:13 And then we'll see what output that'll produce.

52:16 - Right, right.

52:18 And the example you just gave is perfect

52:24 because from there, if you have to hire 200 reps,

52:26 it's like, okay, well, what needs to be true

52:28 for us to hire 200 reps?

52:30 Well, we better have a damn good recruiting process.

52:32 (laughing)

52:34 You back into the entire plan to make it happen,

52:38 piece by piece.

52:39 And so to me, it's one of those things

52:42 I wish I would have even maybe put into words earlier.

52:46 But again, it's just one of the ways

52:48 I've thought about things over,

52:50 for as long as I can remember,

52:53 and then landing on the words about a year ago, I think,

52:56 and now echoing them probably to the point

52:58 where it makes my team sick.

53:01 But it's always a signal of,

53:03 I wanna see a little more at this point,

53:06 for better or for worse.

53:09 - Well, Nick, this has been incredible.

53:12 Thanks for sharing everything.

53:13 First of all, your story.

53:14 I just love the commitment and risks

53:17 and betting on yourself

53:19 and the relentless endurance

53:24 that you've displayed throughout your entire career.

53:27 I think it's something that anybody interested

53:29 in aspiring to be a CRO

53:30 or aspiring to be in this type of leadership position

53:33 should be taking notes from.

53:35 And I also really appreciate your approach

53:39 to how to build, go to market, where RevOps fits

53:43 in things you wish you would have done earlier.

53:45 I think you can help someone skip a bunch of potholes

53:49 on their way to their next stage of growth.

53:52 And then I don't think I will ever forget the phrase

53:55 that you've left me with, what needs to be true?

53:58 And I think if anybody's listening,

54:00 you need to ask yourself and others

54:02 that exact question more often.

54:05 And I think it'll unlock all kinds of opportunities

54:07 you never imagined.

54:08 So Nick, thank you so much for being on the podcast

54:10 and I can't wait to see what you do next.

54:15 - Well, thanks a ton.

54:16 Really appreciate you having me on.

54:18 Appreciate everything you're doing for growth leaders

54:21 and SaaS founders everywhere.

54:24 My one ask is to anyone in the audience,

54:26 go find a local gym, go find a local gym, take a class,

54:33 see what they're doing.

54:33 I think their gym owners all around the world

54:36 are solving both a health crisis,

54:40 making us all fitter, healthier humans,

54:42 and they're solving a loneliness epidemic

54:45 that I often don't think gets enough discussion.

54:49 And so between that, making mental health better,

54:52 they really are doing a ton of work to make our communities

54:56 more powerful, healthier mentally and physically.

54:59 So that's my ask for the audience.

55:01 Go drop into a CrossFit affiliate,

55:03 go drop into a HiRocks affiliate,

55:05 go drop into, take a group class,

55:07 promise you won't regret it.