The LeanScale Podcast · Episode 140

Always Be Solutioning: Why Discovery Is for Learning, Not Demoing

Julie Mall on her one-word edit to always be selling, discovery as learning rather than demo scoping, the question that asks what a pain really means, the solutions-engineer edge in the CRO seat, technical account managers over CSMs, and AI for deal patterns and board prep

Julie Mall · Chief Revenue Officer, Zoovu · Zoovu Hosted by Anthony Enrico
Published Updated 00:44:59 37 min read 7310 words
Sales Leadership Enterprise & Public-Sector Sales Sales Enablement Revenue Operations AI in GTM
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Executive Summary

The one-paragraph brief, extended

Why this conversation matters — and who should spend the hour.

Julie Mall is the Chief Revenue Officer at Zoovu, the AI product discovery platform behind ecommerce experiences for brands like Microsoft, Bosch, Canon and Honeywell. She did not come up through quota. She started at PwC running change management on Fortune 50 ERP transformations, deployed B2B ecommerce for large SAP customers during the first dot-com boom, moved into sales engineering, built and led global solutions teams, then took over customer success before stepping into the CRO role. She now runs sales, customer success and solutions as one commercial organization.

Her central idea is a one-word edit to the oldest line in software sales: not always be selling, but always be solutioning. Sellers, she says, tend to arrive at a call with a thing they want to sell, whether it costs $30,000 or $2 million. Those deals can still close, but close rates are lower and cycles run longer because the real work piles up at the end, when the buyer has to sell the purchase internally. Her counterexample is a quarter-end deal with a fire-detection company: it started with ROI modeling on the customer's own metrics, needed roughly one demonstration, and was one of the team's quickest, highest-value deals.

The conversation spends most of its time on discovery. Julie's rule is that discovery is for learning, not for working out what to demo next, and that it never really ends: even late in a cycle you should be learning about the organization and how the project will kick off. Her best practices are plain ones: listen more than you talk (she reviews Gong calls and tells reps when they didn't let the customer speak), read the annual and quarterly reports of public prospects, and check whether you line up with their initiatives. The best question she has heard asks what the pain really means to the business. For the fire-safety company the answer was not a revenue number but safer homes, because customers could buy compatible products at the right time. Her test before any proposal: can the rep explain why this matters as if they were the customer?

Anthony Enrico pushes on what the solutions background brings to the CRO seat. Julie says it lets her help sellers shape deals creatively and act as the bridge between solution architects and business owners in the room, while trying not to become the person who solutions everything. Her biggest adjustment as a new CRO has been helping enough but not too much; coming out of Q3, the team now treats her as a tool to use at the right moment in a deal. Her next priority is making account executives more solution-led, able to run a demonstration in the customer's context rather than a click path, so sales engineers can be reserved for custom demos, POCs and workshops.

After the sale, Zoovu has spent about 18 months turning customer success into a mostly technical team of technical account managers, effectively post-sales solutions engineers, each embedded in six to eight accounts. The result is more customer projects, easier and longer renewals, and a commercial side that becomes the least stressful part of the business. On AI, Julie uses Gong to find patterns in why some deals move quickly and others stall, and Langdock, a private AI workspace connected to Jira, Salesforce and Gong, to assemble board material so executives can spend their time on the narrative. Her caution: AI can help you do your job but can't do it for you, and you still need to know every number on every slide.

Key Takeaways

15 things worth stealing

The load-bearing ideas, each with the business implication and who should care.

01

Always be solutioning closes faster than always be selling

Julie sees sellers come to calls with a thing they want to sell, whether a $30,000 or a $2 million solution. Those deals can still close, but close rates are lower and cycles longer, because the groundwork on the problem, the business case and how ROI will be measured gets left until the end, when the buyer has to sell the purchase into their own business.

Why it matters: Doing the solution work up front moves the hardest part of the deal to where it is cheapest to do. Leaving it to the end is what makes deals drag.

Sales LeadersRevenue ExecutivesFounders
02

Start with the customer's own ROI metrics

Zoovu's end-of-quarter deal with a fire-detection company began with the business case and ROI modeling. The customer shared its metrics so Zoovu could build the use case, and the conversation centered on what solution the customer wanted to create and what needle it would move. It was one of the quickest deals the team did and a high-value one.

Why it matters: When the customer contributes its own numbers, the business case is theirs as much as yours, which shortens the internal selling they have to do.

Sales LeadersRevenue Executives
03

Discovery is for learning, not for scoping the next demo

Julie says discovery often slides into asking what the buyer wants to see. In the fire-safety deal there was roughly one demonstration, most of it live customer sites, while discovery focused on the challenge: shoppers struggle to work out which detectors they need and how many, and the experience has to reach them where they shop, including retailers like Home Depot and Lowe's.

Why it matters: If discovery calls end with a demo checklist rather than a clear picture of the problem and why it matters now, the team is collecting the wrong information.

Sales LeadersRevOps Leaders
04

Discovery never ends

From the first call until the contract is signed, every meeting should be approached with a discovery mindset. Early on it is about the solution and what will be delivered; toward the end it is about the organizational setup and how the project will get kicked off.

Why it matters: Late-stage calls are still discovery calls. What you learn about the buying organization and implementation readiness near close shapes delivery and the first renewal.

Sales LeadersCustomer Success
05

Listen more than you talk, and do the homework

Julie reviews calls in Gong, where the flow of a meeting is visible, and tells reps when they didn't let the customer talk. She expects reps to arrive prepared: for public companies, read the annual and quarterly reports, understand the initiatives, ask whether Zoovu lines up with them and why they are priorities this year.

Why it matters: Preparation is what makes good questions possible, and call recording makes listening ratios coachable rather than a matter of opinion.

Sales LeadersRevOps Leaders
06

Ask what the pain really means to the business

The best discovery question Julie has heard asks what the pain the customer is trying to solve really means to the business. For the fire-safety company the answer was not a revenue target: friction in the buying cycle meant customers struggled to find the right, compatible products, and fixing that meant safer homes. More revenue should follow, but that was not the point.

Why it matters: The question surfaces the reason the project matters, which is what the seller has to be able to say back when designing and presenting the solution.

Sales LeadersRevenue Executives
07

Can the rep articulate it as if they were the customer?

Zoovu uses a fairly standard BANT-style framework, but Julie wants more than confirming budget, buyer and a funded project. Reps should know the real metric being moved, why it matters, how the customer will use the product and what success looks like. If they can't say that by the time a proposal goes in front of the customer, the right work hasn't been done.

Why it matters: It is a simple pre-proposal check managers can run in any deal review. It also guards against the opposite failure Julie names: over-consulting and trying to solve every use case of a platform at once, which pulls in more people and slows the deal.

Sales LeadersRevenue Executives
08

Solution-focused discovery is really about trust

Anthony points out that buyers are people whose promotions or careers may depend on the project. Julie agrees: the real question is whether that person trusts the vendor enough to deliver what it promised, and taking the time to understand the business and why the project matters now is what earns it. It also sets up implementation and long-term value creation.

Why it matters: Anthony adds that this is why he doesn't expect AI to replace sellers soon: the trust equation needs a human who can be held accountable.

Sales LeadersCustomer SuccessRevenue Executives
09

A solutions background lets a CRO bridge technical and commercial

Julie says coming up through solutions lets her help sellers find creative ways to position deals and connect deep technical conversations to the commercial outcome. At a workshop with one of Zoovu's biggest customers, the room held solution architects and business owners, and she could translate between them. She also tries not to become the person who says how everything should be done.

Why it matters: Anthony notes that technical competence adds to trust in technical sales, and that sellers and even CROs who can't speak the language run into trouble. Julie adds that it matters most where, as at Zoovu, the sale leans technical.

Revenue ExecutivesSales Leaders
10

A new CRO has to help enough, but not too much

Julie's biggest unexpected challenge was time management and knowing how much to get involved. Early on she wanted visibility into every opportunity and joined too many calls. Coming out of Q3, her lesson was to give the team the tools, let go, and become something the team uses at the right moment in a deal.

Why it matters: She frames leadership as a service job, and says the time freed up should go to conversations beyond deal progression: how people are doing, what they want next year and their long-term goals.

Revenue ExecutivesSales Leaders
11

Make AEs solution-led and save sales engineers for deep work

Julie wants account executives to rely on sales engineers much later in the cycle than they do today. AEs should run solution-led discovery and walk through a demonstration in the customer's context, not a click path, because they just spent a discovery call learning what matters. Sales engineers should be used for custom demonstrations, POCs and deep-solutioning workshops.

Why it matters: It is a deliberate shift in where solution skill sits on the team, and her stated priority for the end of this year and the start of next.

Sales LeadersRevenue Executives
12

Technical account managers turn customer success into solutioning

Over roughly 18 months Julie moved Zoovu's post-sales team away from a renewals-focused model. She now has more technical account managers than traditional CSMs. They are effectively post-sales solutions engineers, each embedded in six to eight accounts, talking to customers about their initiatives and running projects, with commercial oversight still in place.

Why it matters: The result she describes is more customer projects, easier renewals, more long-term renewals and a commercial side that becomes the least stressful part of the business.

Customer SuccessRevenue ExecutivesFounders
13

Good solutioning before the sale creates the blueprint for expansion

Julie calls it a connective circle: thorough solutioning up front tees up a path for the customer to keep growing. Instead of throwing the deal over the wall to customer success, the sale has already created the blueprint for expansion, and the technical post-sales team picks it up to drive results.

Why it matters: Anthony adds that few teams are this proactive after the sale, and that expanding and retaining the base takes pressure off marketing and new-logo sales, which are the expensive and risky side of the house.

Customer SuccessRevenue ExecutivesSales Leaders
14

Use AI to find deal patterns and draft board material, then own the numbers

Julie uses Gong to see where deals get stuck and why, and wants to work with her RevOps manager to compare deals that move efficiently with deals that stall but still close, then operationalize the difference. Zoovu also uses Langdock, a private AI workspace connected to Jira, Salesforce and Gong, which gives a first view for board preparation so the team can spend time on the narrative instead of assembling decks.

Why it matters: Her caution is that AI-made decks are often not fit for a customer. AI can help you do your job, not do it for you, and the board will still pick one number on a slide and ask what it means.

Revenue ExecutivesRevOps Leaders
15

Solutions engineers should find which part of the job they love

For sales engineers aiming at the executive track, Julie's advice is to apply discovery to yourself: be curious, try things, find mentors and work out what you really enjoy. She sees three or four paths: into product management or engineering for those who like to build, up through the account-executive path for those who love the deal, staying as an individual solutions engineer for those who don't want to manage people, or into leadership.

Why it matters: Her closing hope is to see many more CROs in the next few years who have come up through the solutions ranks rather than as traditional quota carriers.

Sales LeadersRevenue Executives
Frameworks Discussed

9 named models

Every framework Jimmy names, defined and time-stamped.

Always Be Solutioning

04:08

A replacement for always be selling: approach every opportunity with an open mind and do the work on the problem, the business case, ROI measurement and the value proposition from the start, rather than arriving with a product to push.

Julie's observation over a long career is that product-first deals still close but with lower close rates and longer cycles, because the work ends up at the end of the cycle, when the buyer has to sell the purchase internally. Solution-first deals, like Zoovu's fire-detection deal built on the customer's own ROI metrics, close faster and bigger. The idea runs through discovery, proofs of concept, post-sales and the CRO role, which she calls solutioning on a bigger scale.

Discovery Is for Learning, Not Demoing

09:22

Treat discovery as a way to learn about the customer's challenge, why it matters and why now, not as a way to find out what to show in the next meeting.

Julie says discovery often leans toward asking what the buyer would like to see. She challenges her team to use it to learn so they can partner better with customers. In the fire-safety deal there was roughly one demonstration, mostly of live customer sites, while discovery covered how shoppers choose detectors and how to reach them where they buy, including big-box retailers.

Discovery Never Ends

11:14

Approach every meeting from first call to signed contract with a discovery mindset. Early calls focus on the solution; late calls on the organizational setup and how the project will start.

Julie's practical rules for running discovery: come with an inquiring mind, listen more than you talk (checked in Gong call reviews), arrive prepared, and for public companies read the annual and quarterly reports to understand their initiatives and whether you line up with them.

What Does This Pain Really Mean to the Business?

13:26

The discovery question Julie rates highest: ask what the pain the customer is trying to solve really means to the business, rather than which revenue number they want to move.

Asked of a home-safety company, it surfaced that friction in the buying cycle left customers unable to find the right, compatible products, and that fixing it meant safer homes. Revenue should follow, but the answer gave the seller the reason the project mattered, which then has to be articulated back when presenting the solution.

Articulate It Like You Were the Customer

07:38

Before a proposal goes in front of a customer, the rep should be able to explain why the project matters to them, how they will use the solution and what success looks like, as if they were the customer.

Zoovu uses a fairly standard BANT-style framework for qualification, but Julie wants reps to go further and find the real metric being moved and why it matters. If they can't articulate it by proposal time, the right work wasn't done. She balances this against the risk of over-consulting, especially with a platform that can solve many use cases at once: focus on the problem, ask whether it is measurable and how, and build the use case from there.

Solution-Led AEs, Specialist Sales Engineers

25:06

Account executives run solution-led discovery and give demonstrations in the customer's context; sales engineers come in later for custom demonstrations, POCs and deep-solutioning workshops.

Julie wants the sales team to mirror what she built in customer success. AEs should be able to say why a feature matters to this customer because they learned it in discovery, rather than following a click path. That frees sales engineers for the work where their value really shows.

Technical Account Managers as Post-Sales Solutions Engineers

39:53

Staff post-sales mainly with technical account managers who each own a small book of six to eight accounts, work on the customer's initiatives and run projects, rather than a renewals-focused CSM team.

Zoovu made this shift over about 18 months, keeping commercial oversight but leaning the team heavily technical. The effect is more projects with customers, customers discovering things they didn't know were possible, and renewals that are easier and more often long-term.

The Solutioning Connective Circle

42:13

Good solutioning before the sale creates the blueprint for expansion, which the technical post-sales team then executes, rather than the deal being thrown over the wall to customer success.

Julie describes pre-sale and post-sale solutioning as one loop. The upfront work tees up a pathway for the customer to grow, the post-sales team drives results against it, and customers get a partner in getting value from the technical solution, not only on the commercial side.

The CRO as a Tool Used at the Right Time

22:41

A new CRO should help enough but not too much: equip the team, stay out of most calls, and be brought into a deal when it will make a difference.

Julie's lesson from her first quarters was that she had been too involved in day-to-day deals. She now sees leadership as a service job and protects time for conversations about how people are doing and their long-term goals, not only deal progression.

Best Quotes

20 lines worth clipping

Pulled verbatim. Copy or share any of them.

“Now we're talking about AI, but we're fundamentally still solving the same challenge.”
Julie Mall 03:46
“I think often what happens with sellers is they come to a call wanting to sell something and they have a thing and they want to sell it.”
Julie Mall 04:13
“They tend to have lower close rates and the cycles are longer than they need to be because what ends up happening is you end up doing all the work at the end of the cycle.”
Julie Mall 04:47
“If we can't articulate that by the time we're putting a proposal in front of the customer, then we haven't done the right type of work in that particular sales cycle.”
Julie Mall 07:55
“I really challenge the team not to think about discovery as a means by which to show something, but as a means by which to learn something so that we can partner better with our customers.”
Julie Mall 10:43
“At the end of the day, discovery actually never ends.”
Julie Mall 11:16
“So best practices, listen more than you talk. Come prepared with an understanding of the customer. Do your research.”
Julie Mall 12:32
“What is this pain that you're trying to solve for really mean to the business?”
Julie Mall 13:26
“This kind of solution-focused discovery process at the end of the day, I think it's actually really about building trust.”
Julie Mall 15:59
“In order to have that trust equation, you need a human on the other end because an AI can't be accountable.”
Anthony Enrico 16:45
“The team more thinks of me as a tool to use at the right time in their deal, versus coming to every meeting and sitting in and listening.”
Julie Mall 23:50
“I've always thought of being a leader as a service job. I'm in service to the team.”
Julie Mall 24:15
“I have more technical account managers in that team than I have like traditional customer success managers.”
Julie Mall 25:30
“Not just a click path, but like, this is important to you because I just spent a discovery call learning about that.”
Julie Mall 26:22
“We used to just spend so much time preparing board decks and now we spend time thinking about the narrative because we have all the data.”
Julie Mall 33:10
“It can't do our jobs, it can help us do our jobs, but it can't do it for us.”
Julie Mall 33:39
“They're going to find one number on the slide and they're going to be like, well, what does that one mean? And you have to know.”
Julie Mall 35:23
“When you're actively working with customers that way and you're working on projects and delivering solutions, the commercial part of it actually becomes the less stressful part of the business.”
Julie Mall 41:13
“It's not a, hey, you bought this thing, you throw it over the wall and the customer success team is going to pick it up. You've essentially created the blueprint for that expansion.”
Julie Mall 42:31
“The CRO, yes, pinnacle role, whatever we want to call it, it's really just about solutioning on a bigger scale.”
Julie Mall 44:11
Practical Advice

What should you actually do?

The playbook, split by the seat you sit in.

Sales Leaders

  • Start deals with the business case and ROI model, and ask the customer to share its own metrics so the use case is built on their numbers.
  • Coach reps to use discovery to learn the problem, why it matters and why now, not to collect a list of things to demo.
  • Treat every call through signature as discovery: early on the solution, late in the cycle the organizational setup and how the project will kick off.
  • Review recorded calls for talk ratio and tell reps directly when they didn't let the customer speak.
  • Require prospect research before discovery: for public companies, the annual and quarterly reports and their stated initiatives.
  • Ask what the pain really means to the business, not only which revenue number the customer wants to move.
  • Before any proposal, check that the rep can explain why the project matters, how it will be used and what success looks like as if they were the customer.
  • Keep platform deals focused on one measurable problem rather than every possible use case, which pulls in more people and slows the deal.

Revenue Executives

  • Make account executives solution-led and able to demo in the customer's context, and reserve sales engineers for custom demonstrations, POCs and workshops.
  • As a new CRO, resist joining every call: equip the team and let them bring you in at the moment you add the most.
  • Protect time for career and wellbeing conversations, not only deal progression.
  • Use AI to assemble board material quickly, then spend the saved time with the executive team learning what every number means and why it is there.
  • Check AI-generated decks before they go anywhere near a customer; they are a starting point, not a finished product.
  • Consider solutions and sales-engineering leaders for CRO roles, especially where the sale leans technical.

Customer Success

  • Shift post-sales from a renewals focus to solutioning, with technical account managers acting as post-sales solutions engineers.
  • Keep each technical account manager's book small, around six to eight accounts, so they can embed in the customer's initiatives and run projects.
  • Pick up the expansion blueprint created during the sale rather than starting from scratch after handoff.
  • Measure the effect in project volume, renewal ease and renewal length.

RevOps Leaders

  • Help AEs keep Salesforce current in a way that feeds deal-progression and linearity reviews, not as a hygiene chore for its own sake.
  • Use call data to compare deals that move efficiently with deals that stall but still close, then operationalize what the fast deals do differently.
  • Track patterns as deals move from new business to their first renewal, since RevOps sees new business, services, renewals and upsells in one view.
  • Connect CRM, call-recording and ticketing data into one AI workspace so leaders get a holistic first view for board and pipeline reviews.
AI Takeaways

How AI actually changes GTM

LeanScale's signature read on the AI-in-GTM question this episode wrestles with.

The thesis

AI helps revenue leaders find patterns and assemble information faster, but the parts of selling that depend on trust and accountability, and the judgment about what the numbers mean, stay with people.

Agent & automation ideas

  • A deal-velocity agent that compares call and CRM patterns between deals that close quickly and deals that stall but still close, and suggests what reps should change.
  • A discovery-prep agent that summarizes a public prospect's annual and quarterly reports into initiatives and suggested questions before the first call.
  • A talk-ratio coach that flags recorded discovery calls where the rep dominated the conversation.
  • A pre-proposal check that asks whether the deal record states the customer's metric, why it matters, how they will use the product and what success looks like.
  • A board-prep agent that assembles a first draft from connected CRM, call and ticketing data and lists every number the executive team should be able to explain.
Operations Takeaways

By function

The same conversation, filtered for RevOps, pipeline/marketing ops, and customer ops.

Revenue Operations

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Pipeline & Marketing Ops

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Metrics Mentioned

The numbers, with context

Top 20% of customers = 80% of revenue
Revenue concentration in early B2B ecommerce

At the chemical and oil companies Julie worked with, top customers ordered through EDI; the other 80% produced 20% of revenue but were the most costly to serve, which is what the ecommerce work targeted.

$30,000 to $2 million
Range of deal sizes in the product-first example

Julie's illustration that sellers bring a thing they want to sell regardless of deal size.

About one
Demonstrations in the fire-safety deal

Mostly live customer sites. The deal, closed at the end of the quarter, was one of Zoovu's quickest and highest-value.

6–8
Accounts per technical account manager

The book of business each post-sales solutions engineer at Zoovu is deeply embedded in.

About 18 months
Time spent moving post-sales to solutioning

How long Zoovu has been transitioning its post-sales team from a renewals focus to technical account managers.

About a year and a half
Julie's time leading customer success before becoming CRO

The period in which the customer success function was transformed to be much more solution-forward.

Two years
Time working with Honeywell

Julie's example of how much a solutions role teaches you about a customer's industry.

One to two weeks
Board-meeting prep before AI

Anthony's recollection of how long he spent assembling board decks as a RevOps leader.

Entities

Companies, people & tools mentioned

Auto-extracted and linked into the knowledge graph.

Companies

ZoovuAI Product Discovery / Ecommerce

Julie's employer, where she is CRO and runs sales, customer success and solutions as one commercial organization. An AI product discovery platform for ecommerce whose named customers include Microsoft, Bosch, Canon and Honeywell. Recently realigned marketing with the commercial organization, has RevOps reporting to the CFO with a dotted line to Julie, and has spent about 18 months moving post-sales to technical account managers.

00:09 · 05:29 · 22:18 · 27:58 · 28:53 · 39:53Company →
PwCProfessional Services

Where Julie began her career, running change management on Fortune 50 ERP transformations (from the show notes).

00:09Company →
Occidental ChemicalChemicals

One of the companies for which Julie implemented B2B ecommerce in the first dot-com boom, where the top 20% of customers ordered through EDI and the bottom 80% were the most costly to serve.

02:12Company →
Chevron Phillips ChemicalChemicals

Another early B2B ecommerce implementation. Julie later cites what she learned implementing ecommerce there as the kind of experience that carried her into sales engineering.

02:12 · 36:50Company →
Pennzoil-Quaker StateAutomotive Products

Another of the large companies for which Julie implemented B2B ecommerce in the early 2000s.

02:12Company →
HoneywellIndustrial Technology

A Zoovu customer Julie has worked with for two years. She uses it to show how solutioning means learning a customer's industry, in this case valves, actuators and thermostats.

00:17 · 20:37Company →
MicrosoftSoftware / Cloud

Named in the introduction as one of the brands whose ecommerce experiences run on Zoovu.

00:17Company →
The Home DepotRetail

Named in the fire-safety deal: customers shop for home-safety products at Home Depot and Lowe's, so the discovery experience has to reach them there, not only on the manufacturer's own site.

10:20Company →
Lowe'sRetail

Named alongside Home Depot as a retailer where the fire-safety company's customers buy, and where the product-discovery experience needed to reach them.

10:20Company →
LeanScaleGTM Operations

Anthony's company. He mentions starting it in 2021 after coming up through customer success and RevOps, which meant owning sales, marketing and customer success himself.

27:13Company →

People

Julie Mallguest

CRO at Zoovu; came up through implementation, sales engineering and global solutions leadership rather than quota, and now runs sales, customer success and solutions as one organization.

Chief Revenue Officer, ZoovuProfile →
Anthony Enricohost

Co-founder of LeanScale and host of The LeanScale Podcast.

Co-FounderProfile →

Tools & software

GongRevenue Intelligence

Julie reviews calls in Gong to coach reps on letting customers talk, and uses it to see where deals get stuck and why, with the aim of comparing fast-moving deals with ones that stall. Also connected into Zoovu's Langdock workspace.

Website ↗
SalesforceCRM

Zoovu's CRM. The RevOps manager works with AEs to keep it clean in a way that drives deal-progression and linearity reviews, and it is connected into Langdock.

Website ↗
LangdockAI Workspace

Zoovu's private AI workspace (transcribed as 'Langdoc'), which uses multiple LLMs and connects Jira, Salesforce, Gong and other tools for a holistic view. Julie uses it to get a first view when preparing for board meetings.

Website ↗
JiraIssue Tracking / Project Management

One of the tools connected into Langdock alongside Salesforce and Gong.

Website ↗
ClaudeAI Assistant

Named by Julie as an example of AI that can create decks which help you get started but which you couldn't put in front of a customer.

Website ↗
Methodologies referenced BANT-style qualificationBusiness case and ROI modeling firstGong call reviews for talk ratioPublic-company research before discoveryTechnical account managers with small booksFast-deal versus stalled-deal pattern analysisAI-assembled board prep
Related LeanScale Services

Where this shows up in the work

Sales Enablement Build

Stand up a zero-based, sales-academy enablement motion sized to your span of control and sales complexity.

Julie's agenda is enablement work: solution-led discovery, a pre-proposal articulation test, call-review coaching on listening, and training AEs to demo in the customer's context.

Fractional RevOps

Embedded, field-facing RevOps leadership and execution — the operator model Jimmy describes, delivered as a service.

Clean Salesforce data that feeds deal-progression and linearity reviews, and analysis of fast versus stalled deals from new business through first renewal, are core RevOps work.

AI for GTM

Agents and workflows that multiply operator throughput — the 'make humans superhuman' thesis, operationalized.

Mining Gong data for deal patterns and connecting CRM, call and ticketing tools into an AI workspace for board prep are practical AI-for-GTM use cases.

Frequently Asked Questions

Straight answers

Generated from the conversation, marked up for search and AI extraction.

What does always be solutioning mean in B2B sales?

Always be solutioning is Zoovu CRO Julie Mall's edit to always be selling. It means approaching each opportunity with an open mind and working out the customer's problem, business case, ROI measure and value proposition from the start, instead of arriving with a product to push. Julie says product-first deals still close but with lower close rates and longer cycles, because the work piles up at the end when the buyer has to sell the purchase internally. Solution-first deals close faster and bigger: Zoovu's deal with a fire-detection company began with ROI modeling on the customer's own metrics, needed about one demonstration, and was one of its quickest, highest-value deals.

What is the purpose of a discovery call?

According to Julie Mall, CRO of Zoovu, discovery is for learning, not for working out what to demo in the next meeting. Its job is to understand the customer's challenge, why it matters and why it matters now, so the vendor can partner with the customer. She adds that discovery never ends: from first call to signed contract every meeting should have a discovery mindset, shifting late in the cycle to the organizational setup and how the project will kick off. Her best practices are to listen more than you talk, prepare by reading a public prospect's annual and quarterly reports, and check whether you line up with its initiatives.

What is a good discovery question to ask a prospect?

Julie Mall's favorite is to ask what the pain the customer is trying to solve really means to the business, rather than which revenue number they want to move. For a home-safety company the answer was that buying friction left customers unable to find the right, compatible products, and fixing that meant safer homes. More revenue should follow, but the answer gave the seller the real reason the project mattered, which then has to be articulated back when presenting the solution. Her test before a proposal is whether the rep can explain why it matters, how it will be used and what success looks like as if they were the customer.

What is the difference between a technical account manager and a customer success manager?

At Zoovu, technical account managers are effectively post-sales solutions engineers. Each owns a small book of six to eight accounts, talks with customers about their initiatives and runs projects, while commercial oversight remains. A traditional CSM team tends to focus on renewals. CRO Julie Mall spent about 18 months moving Zoovu's post-sales team to mostly TAMs, and says the result is more customer projects, easier and longer renewals, and a commercial side that becomes the least stressful part of the business.

When should account executives bring in a sales engineer?

Zoovu CRO Julie Mall wants account executives to bring in sales engineers later than many teams do. AEs should run solution-led discovery themselves and give demonstrations in the customer's context, explaining why a feature matters because they learned it in discovery, rather than following a click path. Sales engineers are then reserved for custom demonstrations, proofs of concept and workshops where deep solutioning is needed, which is where their value is greatest.

How can AI help a CRO prepare for board meetings?

Julie Mall uses Langdock, a private AI workspace connected to Jira, Salesforce and Gong, to assemble a first view of the data for board meetings. Before AI, much of the prep time went into building decks; now the team spends it on the narrative. She warns against over-reliance, since AI-made decks are often not fit to show anyone, and says the real preparation is the executive team learning what every number on every slide means, because a board will pick one number and ask about it.

How can a sales engineer become a CRO?

Julie Mall, who went from implementation to sales engineering, solutions leadership, customer success and then CRO at Zoovu, advises turning discovery on yourself: be curious, try things, find good mentors and work out which part of the job you actually love. She sees several paths out of sales engineering: product management or engineering for builders, the account-executive path for those who love the deal, a senior individual solutions role for those who don't want to manage people, and leadership. She describes the CRO role as solutioning on a bigger scale and hopes to see more CROs who came up through the solutions ranks.

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00:00Intro: Julie Mall, CRO at Zoovu 01:28Dot-com B2B ecommerce and the costliest 80% of customers 03:52Always be solutioning, not always be selling 08:54Discovery is for learning, not for scoping the demo 13:04The best discovery question: what does this pain really mean? 17:31The solutions-engineer edge in the CRO seat 22:31New in the CRO seat: helping enough, but not too much 24:49Making AEs solution-led; TAMs over CSMs 28:50RevOps on a dotted line 30:39AI in GTM: Gong deal patterns, Langdock, and board prep 35:35From sales engineering to the executive seat 39:31Solutioning after the sale: renewals that sell themselves 43:48Closing thoughts: the CRO role is solutioning at scale
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00:00Intro: Julie Mall, CRO at Zoovu

0:00 And the CR role, yes, you know, Pinnacle Role, whatever we want to call it.

0:06 It's really just about solutioning on a bigger scale.

0:09 My guest today is Julie Mal, Chief Revenue Officer at Zuvoot,

0:13 the AI product discovery platform behind e-commerce experiences

0:17 for brands like Microsoft, Bosch, Canon and Honeywell.

0:20 So it taught me that the technology isn't something that is leveraged

0:29 just for the sake of having cool technology,

0:31 even though it was the first dot-com boom and everybody was trying e-commerce.

0:35 We were solving real challenges and real problems for these organizations.

0:40 What's been the biggest challenge stepping into a Chief Revenue Officer role

0:45 that maybe you didn't anticipate?

0:49 One of the bigger challenges is just right now, like, time management and helping enough,

0:58 but not helping too much, right?

1:00 It wouldn't be a podcast in 2026 if I didn't ask,

1:04 "How are you leveraging AI in your go-to-market function?"

1:10 So we just have to hold ourselves accountable, like, AI, to your point.

1:14 It can't do our jobs, it can help us do our jobs, but it can't do it for us.

1:17 Well, I think one thing I'll remember from this conversation is always be solutioning.

01:28Dot-com B2B ecommerce and the costliest 80% of customers

1:28 Julie, take me back to the first dot-com boom.

1:35 You were deploying B2B e-commerce for companies ordering tank cars of chlorine

1:40 and the whole point was that the bottom 80% of their customers were the most expensive to serve.

1:45 What did that teach you that you still use today?

1:50 So, it taught me that the technology isn't something that is leveraged just for the sake

1:59 of having cool technology, even though it was the first dot-com boom and everybody was

2:04 trying e-commerce.

2:06 We were solving real challenges and real problems for these organizations.

2:12 So we, I was working for companies implementing e-commerce for Occidental Chemical, Chevron

2:20 Phillips Chemical, Pennzoil, Quaker State, and it's the classic triangle that the top

2:26 20% of their customers are responsible for 80% of their revenue and for organizations

2:32 like that, those orders went through EDI.

2:35 Nobody touched them, they worked perfectly, but it was that bottom 80% of the customers

2:42 that again, only responsible for 20% of the revenue, but the most costly to serve that

2:48 we were trying to optimize for.

2:50 So rather than having a big CSR team that was picking up the phone to answer basic questions

2:55 like where's my order, can I get a replenishment order done?

3:00 We were laying the framework for optimizing for those customers' experiences whilst also

3:07 creating meaningful value for our customer at the end of the day.

3:12 And full circle story, I was sat with a customer yesterday, we did a big onsite workshop.

3:20 The topic was the next generation of e-commerce and AI and how AI is going to transform it

3:29 and what was the main topic in terms of why we're driving towards that, the customers

3:35 that are the most costly to serve.

3:37 How can we optimize for experiences for those customers?

3:41 And started out with basic e-commerce in the early 2000s.

3:46 Now we're talking about AI, but we're fundamentally still solving the same challenge.

03:52Always be solutioning, not always be selling

3:52 So one of the lines that I love you shared is instead of always be selling, always be

3:58 solutioning.

3:59 And I think that feels like a really strong through line throughout your career.

4:03 What is the nuance there that you think is really important for the audience to hear?

4:08 Coming to an opportunity with an open mind.

4:13 I think often what happens with sellers is they come to a call wanting to sell something

4:21 and they have a thing and they want to sell it.

4:24 Because it's $30,000 type of solution, could be a $2 million solution, but it's a thing

4:34 and they want to sell it.

4:37 And what I've witnessed over a long career is that you can kind of still get deals done

4:46 that way.

4:47 They tend to have lower close rates and the cycles are longer than they need to be because

4:52 what ends up happening is you end up doing all the work at the end of the cycle trying

4:58 to write.

4:59 You talk to a buyer, you show them some cool stuff like, oh yeah, this is really cool technology.

5:05 But then they've got to go sell it into their business and if you haven't done the groundwork

5:09 for understanding what problem you're solving, what the business case is, how you're going

5:14 to measure ROI and build a value proposition around that, getting the deal over the line

5:19 is just so, so much harder.

5:22 And today is the first day of Q4, so it's kind of a fun time to have this conversation.

5:29 And I've seen it in our own business where when we spend, like we did a really great

5:36 deal with a company, I'm not going to name them, but they do like fire detection systems

5:42 and things like that.

5:44 And we started with the business case and the ROI modeling.

5:48 They shared their metrics with us so that we could actually build the use case.

5:53 And it was one of the quickest deals that we did and it was a really high value deal.

5:57 But we started with what is the solution you're trying to create and what needle are we moving

6:05 for you and your business?

6:06 Yeah.

6:07 And I think that can be difficult to practice, especially when you're really passionate about

6:15 the product that you have, you're passionate about the change you're driving in the market.

6:18 And I think it's really easy.

6:19 I found myself doing the same thing.

6:22 I just know what this thing is, is so good.

6:24 I'm like anxious and excited to tell somebody about it.

6:28 But I think taking that moment to hear their, what's happening in their world, framing it

6:33 in their language and their problem, super important.

6:36 I'm curious when you're training sales teams, are there certain methodologies you'd like

6:44 to follow, certain frameworks that you bring in?

6:47 How do you make sure that the salesperson on your team slows down and goes through that

6:53 process?

6:54 Yeah.

6:55 I mean, I think we use a fairly standard type of framework.

7:01 We leverage the Bant kind of methodology, generally speaking.

7:07 But what I'm really trying to foster as we work with the sales team is to, it's not just

7:16 about understanding if there's a project and it's funded and all of those types of things.

7:21 Who's the buyer and all of the information that, yes, you need as you're closing a sales

7:26 deal.

7:27 But what is the real metric that we're moving for the customer?

7:32 Why is it important to them?

7:35 And we kind of build the use case around that.

7:38 And what I really try and kind of get the team to be able to communicate is, can you

7:44 articulate that like you were the customer?

7:46 Do you understand enough to say why this is important to them?

7:51 How they're going to leverage it?

7:53 What success looks like for them?

7:55 If we can't articulate that by the time we're putting a proposal in front of the customer,

7:59 then we haven't done the right type of work in that particular sales cycle.

8:05 And I think it can be a fine line.

8:08 Because I've got targets that I've got to hit every quarter.

8:11 They're trying to retire their quota.

8:14 So we do want to move quickly.

8:17 And it's a fine line.

8:19 We can do too much consulting sometimes and go too far down rabbit holes.

8:24 And so that's something that we carefully balance, especially when you're selling like

8:31 a platform that has a lot of different use cases that you can solve for.

8:35 You tend to sometimes want to solve all of them at once.

8:40 And that can slow things down, it gets more people involved.

8:44 And so it is a balance to really focus on the problem that we're solving.

8:49 Is it measurable?

8:50 How do we measure it?

8:51 And then build a use case from there.

08:54Discovery is for learning, not for scoping the demo

8:54 I'm assuming, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the solutioning mindset is probably prevalent

9:01 throughout the entire sales process and post sales process as well for expansion.

9:08 But I have to bet the moment where it shows up the most is probably going to be during

9:13 that discovery.

9:14 And if you have a proof of concept phase, is that where it feels like it's the most

9:19 important to have that mindset.

9:22 Discovery absolutely.

9:24 And in one of the things that I, you know, again, sort of bring up less often now, right?

9:33 We're always getting better is discovery is not about understanding like what we need to

9:38 demo in the next meeting, right?

9:40 I think discovery often leans in that direction.

9:44 What do we need to show you?

9:45 What would you like to see?

9:47 And you know, again, like with this opportunity that we just closed at the end of the quarter,

9:53 I think we did one demonstration, it wasn't in the majority of it was actually just showing

9:59 live customer sites and so the discovery was really around what is the challenge that they're

10:06 solving for, right?

10:07 Like people struggle to figure out what type of fire detectors they need in their home.

10:12 How many they need?

10:13 Do I need an O2 detector?

10:16 And then how do you inject that experience where the customer is?

10:20 So it's not let's say just on their web page, but you know, you shop at Home Depot and Lowe's.

10:24 And so we were just going through the methodologies by which we could support that.

10:30 And that's what discovery is.

10:31 It's not about, okay, what do I need to show you?

10:34 It's really what, again, is the overall solution and why is it important?

10:39 Why is it important now?

10:40 And so that's how it shows up in discovery for me.

10:43 I really challenge the team not to think about discovery as a means by which to show something,

10:48 but as a means by which to learn something so that we can partner better with our customers.

10:56 When you're creating a discovery process, what are some things that stand out?

11:00 Are there certain questions you want to make sure your team's asking?

11:04 Do you have certain guidelines on how long the process should be operationally?

11:11 What are your best practices for running a discovery?

11:14 So a couple of things there.

11:16 I mean, at the end of the day, discovery actually never ends, right?

11:21 From the first call till when you get the contract signed where you should always be

11:26 approaching those meetings and calls with a discovery mindset.

11:31 Early on, it's about the solution and what we're going to deliver.

11:34 But even towards the end, you should still be learning about the organizational setup.

11:41 How are we going to get this project kicked off?

11:43 So as a general rule, I tell folks discovery is a process that doesn't end.

11:52 But in terms of best practices, the way I really, again, think about discovery is understanding

12:02 and being able to ask the questions about why are we even sitting here today?

12:08 Come within an inquiring mind.

12:12 Listen more than you talk.

12:13 It's one of the great advances in technology, like with call recording and tools like Gong

12:19 and such where you can actually see the flow of a meeting.

12:24 And so I review those calls, and when I do feedback sessions with the team, I'm like,

12:28 you really didn't let the customer talk a lot in that call.

12:32 So best practices, listen more than you talk.

12:36 Come prepared with an understanding of the customer.

12:40 Do your research.

12:41 If they're publicly traded, I really hope you read their annual report, quarterly reports,

12:46 et cetera, to understand what their initiatives are.

12:49 Do we line up with those initiatives?

12:50 Why are they initiatives this year?

12:53 So it's, again, arming yourself with enough knowledge to ask good questions and then to

12:59 listen to the answers actively.

13:04The best discovery question: what does this pain really mean?

13:04 What's one of the best questions you've ever heard asked in discovery that just let you

13:09 know the person inquiring is really, really getting into that solutioning mindset, not

13:15 just trying to stack up what they need to demo in the next meeting?

13:20 That's a thought-provoking question.

13:26 I think that the really good questions are, what is this pain that you're trying to solve

13:33 for really mean to the business?

13:37 And I think I made a, I always make the joke, when software sales, you're not really saving

13:43 lives day-to-day, like we're not in here to, that's just not what we do.

13:49 But sometimes it kind of is, right?

13:50 So if we, and so this was like a question, one of the account executives as we were working

13:56 with this one particular customer, this company's really invested in ensuring customers' homes

14:03 are safe.

14:05 And so this concept of why is this project important, well, we really want to, we've

14:11 seen friction in our buying cycles, right?

14:16 Customers are really struggling to find the right things.

14:19 And so it's that type of question, like what does it really mean?

14:23 And it wasn't about like, what revenue needle are you trying to move?

14:27 And so like asking the question in that way and like being really thoughtful about that

14:31 question, it was, yes, it should lead to more revenue, but like customers have now safer

14:36 homes if they can buy the right products at the right time and ensure that they're compatible

14:41 with the systems that they have.

14:42 Like that type of questioning and listening is I think what customers respond to.

14:51 And we have to be able to articulate that back when we think of like how we deliver

14:55 a solution.

14:56 I think that makes a ton of sense.

14:57 And also I think if I'm reflecting on some of the discovery processes I've been part

15:04 of or if I've been on the other side of being sold to or if I'm selling, I mean, sometimes

15:10 I think we forget that we're working with people and we just think like, oh, we're working

15:13 with this entity over here.

15:15 But it's like, is this person going to get promoted if this goes well?

15:19 Is that going to be a completely game changer for their career if we help them do that?

15:25 And I think sometimes like, hey, let's go, let's peel back the onion and figure out what's

15:30 in it for this person if this is a big success or what's at risk if this doesn't go well.

15:34 I agree wholeheartedly.

15:36 I mean, and that's why I think this concept of solutioning and like being really thoughtful

15:43 in your discovery is really important because really what you're talking about is like,

15:48 is that person going to trust us enough to deliver what we said we were going to deliver?

15:54 Because you're right.

15:55 Oftentimes, jobs, careers are on the line.

15:59 And this kind of, again, solution-focused discovery process at the end of the day, I think it's

16:05 actually really about building trust, right?

16:08 If we take the time and understand your business, why we're doing this project now and what

16:13 it means, then we're in a much better position to actually then deliver on that promise versus

16:20 just again, trying to approach it from a, you know, I've got this thing that I want

16:24 to sell you perspective.

16:25 It seems like you need it.

16:26 So right, like any relationship, you know, you want to start from a basis of trust.

16:35 And I do think that's probably one of the biggest values of the function of sales.

16:42 I know there's a lot of talk.

16:43 Oh, is AI going to take her for sales?

16:44 I don't think so.

16:45 Not in the near term because in order to have that trust equation, you need a human on the

16:50 other end because an AI can't be accountable.

16:53 A human can be accountable, but your AI can't.

16:57 You're not going to yell at, you know, Sam Altman for something that went wrong.

17:01 So you still need that in the equation for it to add up.

17:05 It does.

17:06 And it sets the stage for everything that comes after as well, right?

17:11 In terms of implementation and long term, you know, value creation from like a customer

17:17 success organization.

17:18 So yeah, you know, getting started in that way is it just it sets the stage for, you

17:23 know, long term customer relationships, which is really what we're in this business to do.

17:30 Absolutely.

17:31The solutions-engineer edge in the CRO seat

17:31 I really love your background.

17:34 There's a few CROs that I've interviewed, that I've worked with that have come up through

17:39 the sales engineering solutions side of the business.

17:43 And I think there's a unique perspective that you have and kind of an edge that you bring

17:50 to the CRO role from your perspective coming up through that department and having that

17:56 be the foundation before moving into owning the entire go to market side, what capabilities

18:04 and edge do you think that gave you in this executive position?

18:07 There's a few things maybe that have really served me well.

18:12 One, I think I can be a real asset to the selling teams, right?

18:15 So as they're, you know, so yes, I lead the commercial organization and I can help them,

18:21 you know, shape deals commercially, but also from a, you know, solutioning perspective,

18:26 right?

18:27 I want them to be comfortable bouncing ideas off of not just me, but like, but the whole

18:32 team.

18:33 But I think I can help them think of unique ways to position or, you know, have you thought

18:40 about, you know, you know, kind of changing the just anything solution, solution wise,

18:47 technology wise, I think I can help not all the time and it's not always appropriate,

18:52 but I do think that I can just help the teams be more creative as they think about the types

18:57 of opportunities that they want to work on and how they put deals in front of customers.

19:04 I think, you know, this workshop that I was at yesterday, you know, it was with one of

19:10 our biggest customers.

19:11 And again, we were talking about the future of AI, how it's going to shape commerce and

19:16 experiences.

19:17 And, you know, going into that meeting, you know, there are a lot of technical people

19:20 in that meeting, a lot of solution architects in that meeting.

19:25 But there are also business people in that meeting who, again, are trying to shape outcomes,

19:30 not just architect solutions.

19:32 And I think that's where there's like a really nice connection that I can bring in this role

19:37 where I understand the commercial levers they're trying to move, you know, be that bridge between

19:44 a deep technical conversation and like, okay, this is how it translates to, you know, the

19:49 actual outcome that we're here to pull together.

19:54 So I think there just enables a connection with the customer in a different way.

19:59 Like I understand deeply now the commercial challenges that you likely have and, you know,

20:04 we want to be in service to helping you achieve, you know, achieve those targets.

20:10 So what I, how shall I say, what I also try to catch myself from doing too often is being

20:16 the solutioning person, I don't want to be the person that's like, oh, no, no, this is

20:22 how you should do it.

20:23 Like that, you know, but to be there to support the conversation and, you know, again, bring

20:27 maybe a different point of view.

20:31 But yeah, it's for me, it's the part that I've always just loved about this business

20:37 is walking into a company, you know, I've spent, you know, two years working with Honeywell

20:42 as an example, I know more about valves and actuators and, you know, thermostats and things

20:49 and then certainly than I did two years ago, but, but it's just a, it's a, it's real privilege,

20:56 I guess, that we, that we have in this space to work with customers, help them achieve

21:00 their business goals.

21:01 And you get to learn so much about different, different industries.

21:04 So that's, that's the part I've always just loved about being in solutioning.

21:08 And I'm really excited now, I get to kind of keep that element, but also lead the business.

21:14 Yeah.

21:15 And I think, I think that technical competence adds a lot to that trust equation too, even

21:20 if, even if you're not the one leading the full depth of it, every single, you know,

21:25 detail of it, but showing that you have the level of competence technically, I think especially

21:29 if it's a technical sale or there's some deep technical components to it, I think can bridge

21:35 a lot of trust.

21:36 I mean, quite a few sellers, even CROs where they can't really speak the language run into

21:45 a lot of trouble.

21:46 Yes.

21:47 And, you know, there's, you can, um, and I think we probably all have had, had that experience

21:53 at, at some time or another.

21:55 And you know, I think it's maybe not for the industry that, that we're in and the solutions

22:02 that we're selling, I think it is a real advantage, right?

22:04 Because it does lean technical, we're talking about, you know, digital transformation and

22:09 these types of, of topics.

22:11 Um, you know, there may be some types of solutions where it's less of an asset, um, and, and

22:17 not required.

22:18 But I think, um, in the space that, that we're operating in, uh, at ZuVu, uh, it is a real

22:24 benefit.

22:25 Um, and you know, I think thus far customers have, have appreciated that.

22:31New in the CRO seat: helping enough, but not too much

22:31 What's been the biggest challenge stepping into a chief revenue officer role that maybe

22:38 you didn't anticipate?

22:41 You know, I think the, one of the, one of the bigger challenges is just right now like

22:49 time management and, um, and, and helping enough, but not helping too much, right?

22:56 So I think, uh, again, it's, it's a tendency, you know, you're new in the role and I want

23:00 to get involved in as many, you know, I want to have visibility to all the opportunities

23:05 and you know, like really help the team.

23:07 Um, but I also want them to, to help themselves, uh, as well.

23:11 And I think that, you know, over the course of the past quarter has been one of the, um,

23:15 coming out of, of Q3 is one of the biggest lessons I've learned is that, um, that you

23:22 can be too involved in, in some of the day to day stuff.

23:26 Um, and, you know, you give the team the tools, you, you know, set them up for success and

23:31 you really, you know, like, I don't need to be in every sales call.

23:35 I don't need to be in every meeting.

23:37 And I think there was a tendency, uh, early on to, to try and be too involved.

23:42 Um, and, and now I think, uh, we're, we're moving beyond that and, and I, the team more

23:50 thinks of me as a, uh, like a, this is going to sound, but like a tool to use at the right

23:55 time in their deal, right?

23:57 Versus, you know, coming to every meeting and sitting in and listening and like, we're

24:01 beyond that now.

24:02 So that to me was one of the, just a lesson that I learned is to, to let go a little bit.

24:08 The team knows what they're doing.

24:09 And then, you know, just the, the whole kind of 360 degree view of, of the business, um,

24:15 and in trying to find enough time to, to be of service, like to me, I've always, uh, thought

24:21 of being a leader as a service job, right?

24:23 Like I'm in service to the team, um, and ensuring that I have enough time to still provide that

24:30 service, if you will, um, is important to me.

24:33 So not just having conversations about deal progression, but you know, how are you doing?

24:38 Um, you know, what do you want to accomplish next year?

24:41 What are your longterm goals?

24:42 How do I set you up for success in that way?

24:44 Um, finding time to still do that is also really important to me.

24:49Making AEs solution-led; TAMs over CSMs

24:49 Have you had any big perspective changes on the value of any one of the go to market functions

24:56 where maybe you had some assumptions about the value they bring, how they operate, and

25:02 you had a new perspective once you took ownership of them.

25:06 What I want to see is more solutioning from the account executive team, right?

25:14 So you know, before I took on the CRO role, CRO role, I was leading the customer success

25:20 function and over like, you know, the sort of year and a half that I was doing that we've

25:25 transformed that side of the business to be much more solution forward.

25:30 So I have more technical account managers in that team than I have like traditional customer

25:36 success managers.

25:37 You know, we still have commercial oversight, but the team leans very heavily solution technical

25:45 forward.

25:46 So, so I want to start to mirror that in the sales function, right?

25:51 Where the account executives, right?

25:53 They should be leaning on the solutions or, you know, the sales engineers, solutions engineers

25:59 much later in the cycles that I think we currently are.

26:02 And so that's a real focus, you know, kind of closing out this year, but certainly at

26:07 the start of next year is they all have to be much more capable of not just that sort

26:13 of solutions led discovery, but, you know, being able to walk through a demonstration

26:20 in the context of a customer, right?

26:22 Not just a click path, but like, this is important to you because I just spent, you know, a discovery

26:27 call learning about that.

26:28 And I think that is like a real priority for me is to make the account executives sort

26:36 of help them become more solution-y-esque, if you will, and use true sales engineers

26:43 for like things like custom demonstrations, POCs, workshops where we're going to, you

26:49 know, do some deep solutioning.

26:52 That's really where their value comes into play.

26:55 So I think that's definitely a priority.

26:59 Yeah, I just think it's interesting because the CRO role just covers such a wide breadth

27:05 of functions with aligned targets and aligned accountability, but really, really different

27:12 functions.

27:13 And, and I think, you know, personally, I came up through customer success, then RevOps,

27:19 then in 2021, I started LeanScale, which meant I got to do all of my own sales and

27:25 marketing and customer success and everything else that comes with it.

27:28 And I just remember thinking like, oh, I had a lot of assumptions about maybe marketing

27:32 or sales, and now that I own them, like I have deeper appreciation for some of the challenges

27:38 that they have to go through.

27:39 Yes.

27:40 And I think that's another, you know, coming into this role and like really kind of peeling

27:45 back the covers and understanding what, you know, like much more deeply the functions

27:52 of the marketing organization and how we bring that to bear into sales.

27:58 You know, we spent, you know, really this past quarter kind of realigning marketing

28:05 with this new sort of commercial organization, you know, so that we can operate more closely

28:12 as a combined team versus separate entities.

28:16 And so that actually, you know, kind of going back to, you know, a question you asked earlier

28:19 about one of the challenges of being new in the role, that that has also been, you know,

28:25 a challenge like how are we aligning inbound and outbound strategy?

28:28 How are they performing?

28:29 And, you know, just all those metrics that go into understanding which levers that, you

28:34 know, next quarter, we might want to tweak a little bit to get a little bit more of a

28:38 certain type of opportunity flow.

28:39 And right.

28:40 So that's that's still a learning curve and a learning process for me, for sure.

28:44 But we've got great partners in the organization.

28:49 Absolutely.

28:50RevOps on a dotted line

28:50 Is RevOps part of your remit?

28:53 So dotted line.

28:55 So yeah, RevOps reports into the CFO.

28:59 But obviously we're super close partners.

29:01 And I have an amazing RevOps manager who really just keeps the wheels turning.

29:08 So she's amazing.

29:09 But yeah, she reports up through the CFO.

29:12 But we're like, you know, dotted line, if you will.

29:15 She's a super important part of the team.

29:18 Is there anything in particular that you feel like she's been able to unlock to help you

29:23 get the visibility or management across the entire go to market life cycle?

29:29 For sure.

29:30 You know, especially on the new business side, working with the account executives to keep

29:37 Salesforce clean and up to date, but not not in a way that's just about, you know, update

29:42 your Salesforce, but how it then drives into how we look at deal progression and linearity

29:48 and just keeping that part of the organization moving.

29:56 She's super, super important to the team from that respect.

30:04 So I think from a RevOps perspective, because she has visibility to sort of much like I

30:11 do, kind of all of the opportunities from net new business, you know, services, business,

30:18 renewals, upsells, the whole thing.

30:20 And so she's a really great partner, you know, as we start to see patterns in how deals move

30:26 out of new business and, you know, they're coming up for the first renewal, what are

30:29 we seeing?

30:30 So, you know, a really, really important part of how we're trying to transform the business.

30:39AI in GTM: Gong deal patterns, Langdock, and board prep

30:39 It wouldn't be a podcast in 2026 if I didn't ask, how are you leveraging AI in your go-to-market

30:48 function?

30:49 Are there any novel ways you're leveraging AI or things that have surprised you unlocking

30:54 any levels of productivity, efficiency, effectiveness?

30:59 So so yes, we're using AI in a variety of ways.

31:02 So, transparently, I think we need to utilize it a little bit more and automate some things.

31:10 I think everybody feels that way.

31:12 Yeah, yeah.

31:13 I don't know if anybody's sitting there thinking like, wow, I bet I'm the best user of AI in

31:18 the market right now.

31:19 No, I was just at lunch with our CEO, and he was walking me through his setup and like

31:26 what things he's automated, I'm like, you know, can you just like copy, can I copy and

31:30 paste that?

31:31 So, so we all have our own ways in our day-to-day that we're using it to optimize for, you know,

31:39 for efficiency and time and all of these things, but, you know, just from a like a business

31:45 management perspective, like leveraging the tools and what they have to offer is like

31:51 the first step, right?

31:52 So you know, between, you know, Gong and Salesforce, and you know, being able to use, you know,

31:58 like Gong does a really great job of giving you a perspective on where deals are stuck

32:03 and why and what patterns can you see and, you know, I want to, it was just a conversation

32:07 I was having with my RevOps manager, you know, I want to start unpacking like, you know,

32:14 we see some deals that move very efficiently through the sale cycle, and some that seem

32:19 to stall, stall, stall, and they both close, but what are we, what are we doing well in

32:25 the deals that are progressing quickly and can we start to detect some patterns compared

32:30 to the ones that aren't, right?

32:32 So that, that sort of mining of like all the call data and, you know, that type of information

32:38 is really interesting and we now need to operationalize that, right?

32:43 So you take the learnings and then you operationalize that, you know, I use it, we have a solution

32:51 internally it's called Langdoc, which allows you to connect, right?

32:55 So it's your sort of private AI space within your company, it leverages all the LLMs, but

33:00 you can connect Jira, Salesforce, Gong, you can connect all your tools, so you get a holistic

33:06 view.

33:07 So when I'm preparing, you know, for board meetings and things like that, it becomes

33:10 super useful to get that kind of first view before AI, we used to just spend so much time

33:16 preparing board decks and now we spend time thinking about the narrative because we have

33:21 all the data, it's just so much more efficient.

33:23 But what I also notice is you can like, you know, rely on it too much.

33:28 I've seen Claude or, you know, tools create decks and you're just like that, you can't

33:34 put that in front of a customer, right?

33:36 It's great, great to help you get started.

33:39 So we just have to hold ourselves accountable, like AI, it can't do our jobs, it can help

33:44 us do our jobs, but it can't do it for us.

33:47 And you know, we have to pay attention to that.

33:50 Yeah, I was a board deck man at all the companies I was at when I was running RevOps and it

33:56 was like pulling together all the data, putting everything in.

34:00 We would spend one to two weeks getting ready for a board meeting.

34:06 So having AI powered board decoration is a really, really nice thing now.

34:13 On board meetings, I always felt like those were some of the most stressful things to

34:20 prepare for.

34:21 And I know there's always like so much going on to get ready for those.

34:25 For other executives listening, any tips or thoughts on how to have a really good board

34:31 meeting?

34:32 I mean, this is one of the values of AI because it can pull together the content really quickly

34:40 and then you actually spend the time with the rest of the executive team preparing and

34:48 understanding exactly every number, what it means, how it ties in.

34:53 So I mean, there's no secret sauce other than just be overly prepared, know what every number

35:00 means on every slide and why it's there and that's just time and prep.

35:07 So on the one hand, AI really helps get all of that stood up, but then you just have to

35:13 spend the time just like absorbing the information into your being so that you just, you know,

35:21 that's what boards want, right?

35:23 They're going to find one number on the slide and they're going to be like, well, what does

35:27 that one mean?

35:28 And you have to know, you just have to know, yeah.

35:33 I think it's really, really good advice.

35:35From sales engineering to the executive seat

35:35 One thing I was also hoping to pick your brain on, I know there's a lot of people who are

35:39 in sales engineering solution roles, they're very ambitious about their career.

35:46 It seems like the path up is leading into that CROC.

35:51 If you can use your career kind of as a roadmap, what are some things that somebody currently

35:57 sitting in a sales engineering role or solutions engineering role can do to start marching

36:02 towards an executive position?

36:04 You know, it's kind of like reflecting that discovery process back on yourself, but like

36:09 be curious and, you know, inquisitive and ask people about, you know, what they're doing

36:16 and how can you help?

36:18 You know, I think there's no better way to kind of grow your career than to, in some

36:24 respects it's what I did.

36:26 Like I tried a lot of things over the course of my career and it teaches you the things

36:30 that you really enjoy, like didn't love doing implementations.

36:35 But what I did love was actually kind of solving the problems for customers as we were working

36:41 together that, you know, sort of springboards me into, you know, sales engineering where,

36:46 you know, you can take that experience and apply it to, well, you know, hey, this is

36:50 what I learned when we were implementing, you know, e-commerce at Chevron Phillips and

36:55 it kind of sounds like you have the same, right, so just trying things and looking for

37:02 opportunities.

37:03 Find great mentors, you know, I think I've had the privilege of having really great mentors

37:11 along the way to bounce ideas off of.

37:14 But I think, again, if you're in sales engineering and you want to grow, and this is, again, sort

37:22 of advice I've given to people on my teams for a long time, right, there really are a

37:27 few paths that, three or four paths that you can go on and it's up to you to discover which

37:33 really resonates with you.

37:34 I see people in sales engineering move into like a product organization.

37:38 They want to do product management or even product engineering because they love that

37:42 like deep technical, they like to build things, right, so you have to be a little bit self-aware

37:47 and understand like what you enjoy.

37:50 If you love the art of the deal, you're probably going to go up through a, you know, an account

37:53 executive path.

37:55 I've worked with some amazing solutions engineers who, they don't want to manage people, they

38:01 just want to go talk to customers in solution and they're like phenomenal at their job and

38:06 they know that, right, they know like I don't want to be a people manager, right, and so

38:10 they have that self-awareness to know that this is the path that they want to go on and

38:14 there are growth paths just to stay in solutions engineering, right, if that's really what

38:19 you love.

38:20 So it's, you got to be a little bit self-aware and understand like if you tell yourself you

38:27 like sales engineering, start asking yourself what specifically about what you're doing

38:33 do you really love and that I think will guide you into the next step of the process.

38:38 Yeah, because it is a very dynamic role.

38:41 It's not only technical, it's not only selling, it's not only front-end facing.

38:46 There is some management involved too and pulling people in to get the solution ready

38:50 to go.

38:51 So I think knowing that, I agree, it's like okay, of this very diverse set of responsibilities

39:00 I have, what's really filling my tank on these?

39:03 Exactly, exactly, yeah, and for me it was I just want to control everything.

39:11 Well you have to have some level of yeah, no, you have to walk around and think oh things

39:16 could be better and I think I have an idea of how that could be the case.

39:21 Yeah, exactly, and so you know I'm certainly, you know, half the battle is you know taking

39:28 advantage when the opportunity presents itself.

39:31Solutioning after the sale: renewals that sell themselves

39:31 So when people think about solutions, consulting, sales engineering, often they're thinking

39:36 oh they're coming in during that new logo acquisition phase, they're helping frame up

39:42 the POC perhaps and then helping close the deal.

39:45 Do you see solutions engineers or sales engineers also working post-close on the customer success

39:51 side?

39:53 We do and again it's one of the sort of transitions that we have been working on for the past

40:01 18 months or so to sort of transition that post-sales team into a more solutioning type

40:08 of approach, right?

40:09 So rather than just kind of focus on a renewals type of organization where we're thinking

40:15 about renewals, we're constantly thinking about solutions and solutioning.

40:19 So we have essentially a team of, you know, we call them technical account managers but

40:23 they're really post-sales solutions engineers and they have their book of business, you

40:28 know, the six or eight accounts that they're really deeply embedded with and that's what

40:33 they do, you know, they're talking to customers about what their initiatives are and coming

40:38 up with solutions and doing projects, right?

40:41 So this is really the transformation we've seen in the business is when we're like focused

40:47 on that solutioning in the, you know, with existing customers, it manifests itself as

40:54 cool projects.

40:55 They're like, oh, I didn't know you could do that, right, like, which is the very essence

40:58 of solutioning is applying, you know, maybe something that you didn't think of to a problem

41:04 and they're like, oh yeah, well, you know, it seems like a great thing that we should

41:07 do and so we see a real growth in like the number of projects that we're doing with customers

41:13 and so when you're actively working with customers that way and you're working on projects and

41:17 delivering solutions, the commercial part of it actually becomes the less stressful

41:23 part of the business, right, the renewals are much easier.

41:27 We see a lot more long-term type of renewals and so yeah, we've applied that concept of

41:33 solutioning directly into the existing business, yeah, we have dedicated technical teams that

41:38 that's what they're doing, you know, with customers day in and day out.

41:42 I think very few teams are that proactive about the post-sale process and I think it's

41:49 a massive opportunity if you can extend the LTV, if you can really manufacture some expansion

41:56 and upsells, it takes so much, so much pressure off of the marketing side of the house to

42:02 drive pipeline, the sales team to land new logos.

42:06 This side of the house is so expensive, risky, difficult and if you can continue to expand

42:13 and retain your base, the results are incredible, yes, and it is just a sort of a connective

42:22 circle, right, if we're doing really good solutioning up front, we've teed up a pathway

42:28 for that customer to continue to grow with us.

42:31 It's not a, hey, you bought this thing, you throw it over the wall and the customer success

42:36 team is going to pick it up, right, you've essentially created the blueprint for that

42:40 expansion and then we have the, you know, the technical post-sales team come in and

42:44 really focus on driving those results with customers and, you know, customers I think

42:50 are overall quite appreciative of that, that they have a real partner, not just in, you

42:56 know, the commercial side but, you know, really getting value out of the technical solution

43:00 that they bought.

43:01 Well, I think that makes a ton of sense on that side of the house and applying that solutions

43:06 mindset really seems like it can have a major impact across the entire go-to-market lifecycle

43:12 and, Julie, I really appreciate everything you shared.

43:15 I think it's such a cool experience to come up through the solution engineering side of

43:20 the house, end up in the pinnacle role of go-to-market and then be in a position to

43:25 oversee the whole thing and I know there are lots of people who have the CRO position on

43:31 their mindset and I think it's very cool that you've carved out that path for them.

43:36 So, Julie, I appreciate everything you shared on the podcast.

43:38 I know it's going to be very helpful for anybody who has listened in and I can't wait to see

43:44 how your role develops and what you do next.

43:48Closing thoughts: the CRO role is solutioning at scale

43:48 Yeah, I appreciate it.

43:50 I've really enjoyed the conversation, Anthony.

43:52 Thank you and, you know, my closing thought is, you know, for all those solutions folks

44:00 out there, you know, you have that ability, you know, we see solutions so uniquely and

44:11 the CRO, yes, you know, pinnacle role, whatever we want to call it, it's really just about

44:18 solutioning on a bigger scale, right?

44:20 So you just kind of keep that mindset going, I think.

44:24 I would love, you know, next year, a couple of years from now to see quite a lot more

44:30 people in a CRO role that look a lot more like me than a traditional quota carrot, not

44:36 nothing against them, but, you know, that have come up through the solutions ranks.

44:40 I think we just, we bring a unique perspective.

44:43 Well, I think one thing I'll remember from this conversation is always be solutioning.

44:49 Exactly, exactly.

44:50 Well said.

44:51 Thank you, Julie.

44:52 Take care.

44:53 Take care.

44:54 Thank you.