---
title: "Always Be Solutioning: Why Discovery Is for Learning, Not Demoing"
episode: 140
podcast: "The LeanScale Podcast"
publisher: "LeanScale"
guest: "Julie Mall"
guest_title: "Chief Revenue Officer, Zoovu"
date_published: 2026-10-15
date_modified: 2026-10-21
duration: 00:44:59
word_count: 7310
topics: ["sales-leadership", "enterprise-sales", "sales-enablement", "revenue-operations", "ai-in-gtm"]
canonical_url: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/julie-mall-zoovu-always-be-solutioning/
source: "LeanScale Knowledge Hub — https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge"
license: "Free to quote and cite with attribution to The LeanScale Podcast."
---

# Always Be Solutioning: Why Discovery Is for Learning, Not Demoing — Full Transcript

> Episode 140 of The LeanScale Podcast, with Julie Mall.
> Published October 15, 2026 · 00:44:59 · 7310 words.
> Machine-transcribed and **not diarized** — speaker attribution is inferred, so verify
> attribution against the audio before quoting a specific person.
> Structured breakdown: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/julie-mall-zoovu-always-be-solutioning/

## 00:00 — Intro: Julie Mall, CRO at Zoovu

**[0:00]** And the CR role, yes, you know, Pinnacle Role, whatever we want to call it.

**[0:06]** It's really just about solutioning on a bigger scale.

**[0:09]** My guest today is Julie Mal, Chief Revenue Officer at Zuvoot,

**[0:13]** the AI product discovery platform behind e-commerce experiences

**[0:17]** for brands like Microsoft, Bosch, Canon and Honeywell.

**[0:20]** So it taught me that the technology isn't something that is leveraged

**[0:29]** just for the sake of having cool technology,

**[0:31]** even though it was the first dot-com boom and everybody was trying e-commerce.

**[0:35]** We were solving real challenges and real problems for these organizations.

**[0:40]** What's been the biggest challenge stepping into a Chief Revenue Officer role

**[0:45]** that maybe you didn't anticipate?

**[0:49]** One of the bigger challenges is just right now, like, time management and helping enough,

**[0:58]** but not helping too much, right?

**[1:00]** It wouldn't be a podcast in 2026 if I didn't ask,

**[1:04]** "How are you leveraging AI in your go-to-market function?"

**[1:10]** So we just have to hold ourselves accountable, like, AI, to your point.

**[1:14]** It can't do our jobs, it can help us do our jobs, but it can't do it for us.

**[1:17]** Well, I think one thing I'll remember from this conversation is always be solutioning.

## 01:28 — Dot-com B2B ecommerce and the costliest 80% of customers

**[1:28]** Julie, take me back to the first dot-com boom.

**[1:35]** You were deploying B2B e-commerce for companies ordering tank cars of chlorine

**[1:40]** and the whole point was that the bottom 80% of their customers were the most expensive to serve.

**[1:45]** What did that teach you that you still use today?

**[1:50]** So, it taught me that the technology isn't something that is leveraged just for the sake

**[1:59]** of having cool technology, even though it was the first dot-com boom and everybody was

**[2:04]** trying e-commerce.

**[2:06]** We were solving real challenges and real problems for these organizations.

**[2:12]** So we, I was working for companies implementing e-commerce for Occidental Chemical, Chevron

**[2:20]** Phillips Chemical, Pennzoil, Quaker State, and it's the classic triangle that the top

**[2:26]** 20% of their customers are responsible for 80% of their revenue and for organizations

**[2:32]** like that, those orders went through EDI.

**[2:35]** Nobody touched them, they worked perfectly, but it was that bottom 80% of the customers

**[2:42]** that again, only responsible for 20% of the revenue, but the most costly to serve that

**[2:48]** we were trying to optimize for.

**[2:50]** So rather than having a big CSR team that was picking up the phone to answer basic questions

**[2:55]** like where's my order, can I get a replenishment order done?

**[3:00]** We were laying the framework for optimizing for those customers' experiences whilst also

**[3:07]** creating meaningful value for our customer at the end of the day.

**[3:12]** And full circle story, I was sat with a customer yesterday, we did a big onsite workshop.

**[3:20]** The topic was the next generation of e-commerce and AI and how AI is going to transform it

**[3:29]** and what was the main topic in terms of why we're driving towards that, the customers

**[3:35]** that are the most costly to serve.

**[3:37]** How can we optimize for experiences for those customers?

**[3:41]** And started out with basic e-commerce in the early 2000s.

**[3:46]** Now we're talking about AI, but we're fundamentally still solving the same challenge.

## 03:52 — Always be solutioning, not always be selling

**[3:52]** So one of the lines that I love you shared is instead of always be selling, always be

**[3:58]** solutioning.

**[3:59]** And I think that feels like a really strong through line throughout your career.

**[4:03]** What is the nuance there that you think is really important for the audience to hear?

**[4:08]** Coming to an opportunity with an open mind.

**[4:13]** I think often what happens with sellers is they come to a call wanting to sell something

**[4:21]** and they have a thing and they want to sell it.

**[4:24]** Because it's $30,000 type of solution, could be a $2 million solution, but it's a thing

**[4:34]** and they want to sell it.

**[4:37]** And what I've witnessed over a long career is that you can kind of still get deals done

**[4:46]** that way.

**[4:47]** They tend to have lower close rates and the cycles are longer than they need to be because

**[4:52]** what ends up happening is you end up doing all the work at the end of the cycle trying

**[4:58]** to write.

**[4:59]** You talk to a buyer, you show them some cool stuff like, oh yeah, this is really cool technology.

**[5:05]** But then they've got to go sell it into their business and if you haven't done the groundwork

**[5:09]** for understanding what problem you're solving, what the business case is, how you're going

**[5:14]** to measure ROI and build a value proposition around that, getting the deal over the line

**[5:19]** is just so, so much harder.

**[5:22]** And today is the first day of Q4, so it's kind of a fun time to have this conversation.

**[5:29]** And I've seen it in our own business where when we spend, like we did a really great

**[5:36]** deal with a company, I'm not going to name them, but they do like fire detection systems

**[5:42]** and things like that.

**[5:44]** And we started with the business case and the ROI modeling.

**[5:48]** They shared their metrics with us so that we could actually build the use case.

**[5:53]** And it was one of the quickest deals that we did and it was a really high value deal.

**[5:57]** But we started with what is the solution you're trying to create and what needle are we moving

**[6:05]** for you and your business?

**[6:06]** Yeah.

**[6:07]** And I think that can be difficult to practice, especially when you're really passionate about

**[6:15]** the product that you have, you're passionate about the change you're driving in the market.

**[6:18]** And I think it's really easy.

**[6:19]** I found myself doing the same thing.

**[6:22]** I just know what this thing is, is so good.

**[6:24]** I'm like anxious and excited to tell somebody about it.

**[6:28]** But I think taking that moment to hear their, what's happening in their world, framing it

**[6:33]** in their language and their problem, super important.

**[6:36]** I'm curious when you're training sales teams, are there certain methodologies you'd like

**[6:44]** to follow, certain frameworks that you bring in?

**[6:47]** How do you make sure that the salesperson on your team slows down and goes through that

**[6:53]** process?

**[6:54]** Yeah.

**[6:55]** I mean, I think we use a fairly standard type of framework.

**[7:01]** We leverage the Bant kind of methodology, generally speaking.

**[7:07]** But what I'm really trying to foster as we work with the sales team is to, it's not just

**[7:16]** about understanding if there's a project and it's funded and all of those types of things.

**[7:21]** Who's the buyer and all of the information that, yes, you need as you're closing a sales

**[7:26]** deal.

**[7:27]** But what is the real metric that we're moving for the customer?

**[7:32]** Why is it important to them?

**[7:35]** And we kind of build the use case around that.

**[7:38]** And what I really try and kind of get the team to be able to communicate is, can you

**[7:44]** articulate that like you were the customer?

**[7:46]** Do you understand enough to say why this is important to them?

**[7:51]** How they're going to leverage it?

**[7:53]** What success looks like for them?

**[7:55]** If we can't articulate that by the time we're putting a proposal in front of the customer,

**[7:59]** then we haven't done the right type of work in that particular sales cycle.

**[8:05]** And I think it can be a fine line.

**[8:08]** Because I've got targets that I've got to hit every quarter.

**[8:11]** They're trying to retire their quota.

**[8:14]** So we do want to move quickly.

**[8:17]** And it's a fine line.

**[8:19]** We can do too much consulting sometimes and go too far down rabbit holes.

**[8:24]** And so that's something that we carefully balance, especially when you're selling like

**[8:31]** a platform that has a lot of different use cases that you can solve for.

**[8:35]** You tend to sometimes want to solve all of them at once.

**[8:40]** And that can slow things down, it gets more people involved.

**[8:44]** And so it is a balance to really focus on the problem that we're solving.

**[8:49]** Is it measurable?

**[8:50]** How do we measure it?

**[8:51]** And then build a use case from there.

## 08:54 — Discovery is for learning, not for scoping the demo

**[8:54]** I'm assuming, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the solutioning mindset is probably prevalent

**[9:01]** throughout the entire sales process and post sales process as well for expansion.

**[9:08]** But I have to bet the moment where it shows up the most is probably going to be during

**[9:13]** that discovery.

**[9:14]** And if you have a proof of concept phase, is that where it feels like it's the most

**[9:19]** important to have that mindset.

**[9:22]** Discovery absolutely.

**[9:24]** And in one of the things that I, you know, again, sort of bring up less often now, right?

**[9:33]** We're always getting better is discovery is not about understanding like what we need to

**[9:38]** demo in the next meeting, right?

**[9:40]** I think discovery often leans in that direction.

**[9:44]** What do we need to show you?

**[9:45]** What would you like to see?

**[9:47]** And you know, again, like with this opportunity that we just closed at the end of the quarter,

**[9:53]** I think we did one demonstration, it wasn't in the majority of it was actually just showing

**[9:59]** live customer sites and so the discovery was really around what is the challenge that they're

**[10:06]** solving for, right?

**[10:07]** Like people struggle to figure out what type of fire detectors they need in their home.

**[10:12]** How many they need?

**[10:13]** Do I need an O2 detector?

**[10:16]** And then how do you inject that experience where the customer is?

**[10:20]** So it's not let's say just on their web page, but you know, you shop at Home Depot and Lowe's.

**[10:24]** And so we were just going through the methodologies by which we could support that.

**[10:30]** And that's what discovery is.

**[10:31]** It's not about, okay, what do I need to show you?

**[10:34]** It's really what, again, is the overall solution and why is it important?

**[10:39]** Why is it important now?

**[10:40]** And so that's how it shows up in discovery for me.

**[10:43]** I really challenge the team not to think about discovery as a means by which to show something,

**[10:48]** but as a means by which to learn something so that we can partner better with our customers.

**[10:56]** When you're creating a discovery process, what are some things that stand out?

**[11:00]** Are there certain questions you want to make sure your team's asking?

**[11:04]** Do you have certain guidelines on how long the process should be operationally?

**[11:11]** What are your best practices for running a discovery?

**[11:14]** So a couple of things there.

**[11:16]** I mean, at the end of the day, discovery actually never ends, right?

**[11:21]** From the first call till when you get the contract signed where you should always be

**[11:26]** approaching those meetings and calls with a discovery mindset.

**[11:31]** Early on, it's about the solution and what we're going to deliver.

**[11:34]** But even towards the end, you should still be learning about the organizational setup.

**[11:41]** How are we going to get this project kicked off?

**[11:43]** So as a general rule, I tell folks discovery is a process that doesn't end.

**[11:52]** But in terms of best practices, the way I really, again, think about discovery is understanding

**[12:02]** and being able to ask the questions about why are we even sitting here today?

**[12:08]** Come within an inquiring mind.

**[12:12]** Listen more than you talk.

**[12:13]** It's one of the great advances in technology, like with call recording and tools like Gong

**[12:19]** and such where you can actually see the flow of a meeting.

**[12:24]** And so I review those calls, and when I do feedback sessions with the team, I'm like,

**[12:28]** you really didn't let the customer talk a lot in that call.

**[12:32]** So best practices, listen more than you talk.

**[12:36]** Come prepared with an understanding of the customer.

**[12:40]** Do your research.

**[12:41]** If they're publicly traded, I really hope you read their annual report, quarterly reports,

**[12:46]** et cetera, to understand what their initiatives are.

**[12:49]** Do we line up with those initiatives?

**[12:50]** Why are they initiatives this year?

**[12:53]** So it's, again, arming yourself with enough knowledge to ask good questions and then to

**[12:59]** listen to the answers actively.

## 13:04 — The best discovery question: what does this pain really mean?

**[13:04]** What's one of the best questions you've ever heard asked in discovery that just let you

**[13:09]** know the person inquiring is really, really getting into that solutioning mindset, not

**[13:15]** just trying to stack up what they need to demo in the next meeting?

**[13:20]** That's a thought-provoking question.

**[13:26]** I think that the really good questions are, what is this pain that you're trying to solve

**[13:33]** for really mean to the business?

**[13:37]** And I think I made a, I always make the joke, when software sales, you're not really saving

**[13:43]** lives day-to-day, like we're not in here to, that's just not what we do.

**[13:49]** But sometimes it kind of is, right?

**[13:50]** So if we, and so this was like a question, one of the account executives as we were working

**[13:56]** with this one particular customer, this company's really invested in ensuring customers' homes

**[14:03]** are safe.

**[14:05]** And so this concept of why is this project important, well, we really want to, we've

**[14:11]** seen friction in our buying cycles, right?

**[14:16]** Customers are really struggling to find the right things.

**[14:19]** And so it's that type of question, like what does it really mean?

**[14:23]** And it wasn't about like, what revenue needle are you trying to move?

**[14:27]** And so like asking the question in that way and like being really thoughtful about that

**[14:31]** question, it was, yes, it should lead to more revenue, but like customers have now safer

**[14:36]** homes if they can buy the right products at the right time and ensure that they're compatible

**[14:41]** with the systems that they have.

**[14:42]** Like that type of questioning and listening is I think what customers respond to.

**[14:51]** And we have to be able to articulate that back when we think of like how we deliver

**[14:55]** a solution.

**[14:56]** I think that makes a ton of sense.

**[14:57]** And also I think if I'm reflecting on some of the discovery processes I've been part

**[15:04]** of or if I've been on the other side of being sold to or if I'm selling, I mean, sometimes

**[15:10]** I think we forget that we're working with people and we just think like, oh, we're working

**[15:13]** with this entity over here.

**[15:15]** But it's like, is this person going to get promoted if this goes well?

**[15:19]** Is that going to be a completely game changer for their career if we help them do that?

**[15:25]** And I think sometimes like, hey, let's go, let's peel back the onion and figure out what's

**[15:30]** in it for this person if this is a big success or what's at risk if this doesn't go well.

**[15:34]** I agree wholeheartedly.

**[15:36]** I mean, and that's why I think this concept of solutioning and like being really thoughtful

**[15:43]** in your discovery is really important because really what you're talking about is like,

**[15:48]** is that person going to trust us enough to deliver what we said we were going to deliver?

**[15:54]** Because you're right.

**[15:55]** Oftentimes, jobs, careers are on the line.

**[15:59]** And this kind of, again, solution-focused discovery process at the end of the day, I think it's

**[16:05]** actually really about building trust, right?

**[16:08]** If we take the time and understand your business, why we're doing this project now and what

**[16:13]** it means, then we're in a much better position to actually then deliver on that promise versus

**[16:20]** just again, trying to approach it from a, you know, I've got this thing that I want

**[16:24]** to sell you perspective.

**[16:25]** It seems like you need it.

**[16:26]** So right, like any relationship, you know, you want to start from a basis of trust.

**[16:35]** And I do think that's probably one of the biggest values of the function of sales.

**[16:42]** I know there's a lot of talk.

**[16:43]** Oh, is AI going to take her for sales?

**[16:44]** I don't think so.

**[16:45]** Not in the near term because in order to have that trust equation, you need a human on the

**[16:50]** other end because an AI can't be accountable.

**[16:53]** A human can be accountable, but your AI can't.

**[16:57]** You're not going to yell at, you know, Sam Altman for something that went wrong.

**[17:01]** So you still need that in the equation for it to add up.

**[17:05]** It does.

**[17:06]** And it sets the stage for everything that comes after as well, right?

**[17:11]** In terms of implementation and long term, you know, value creation from like a customer

**[17:17]** success organization.

**[17:18]** So yeah, you know, getting started in that way is it just it sets the stage for, you

**[17:23]** know, long term customer relationships, which is really what we're in this business to do.

**[17:30]** Absolutely.

## 17:31 — The solutions-engineer edge in the CRO seat

**[17:31]** I really love your background.

**[17:34]** There's a few CROs that I've interviewed, that I've worked with that have come up through

**[17:39]** the sales engineering solutions side of the business.

**[17:43]** And I think there's a unique perspective that you have and kind of an edge that you bring

**[17:50]** to the CRO role from your perspective coming up through that department and having that

**[17:56]** be the foundation before moving into owning the entire go to market side, what capabilities

**[18:04]** and edge do you think that gave you in this executive position?

**[18:07]** There's a few things maybe that have really served me well.

**[18:12]** One, I think I can be a real asset to the selling teams, right?

**[18:15]** So as they're, you know, so yes, I lead the commercial organization and I can help them,

**[18:21]** you know, shape deals commercially, but also from a, you know, solutioning perspective,

**[18:26]** right?

**[18:27]** I want them to be comfortable bouncing ideas off of not just me, but like, but the whole

**[18:32]** team.

**[18:33]** But I think I can help them think of unique ways to position or, you know, have you thought

**[18:40]** about, you know, you know, kind of changing the just anything solution, solution wise,

**[18:47]** technology wise, I think I can help not all the time and it's not always appropriate,

**[18:52]** but I do think that I can just help the teams be more creative as they think about the types

**[18:57]** of opportunities that they want to work on and how they put deals in front of customers.

**[19:04]** I think, you know, this workshop that I was at yesterday, you know, it was with one of

**[19:10]** our biggest customers.

**[19:11]** And again, we were talking about the future of AI, how it's going to shape commerce and

**[19:16]** experiences.

**[19:17]** And, you know, going into that meeting, you know, there are a lot of technical people

**[19:20]** in that meeting, a lot of solution architects in that meeting.

**[19:25]** But there are also business people in that meeting who, again, are trying to shape outcomes,

**[19:30]** not just architect solutions.

**[19:32]** And I think that's where there's like a really nice connection that I can bring in this role

**[19:37]** where I understand the commercial levers they're trying to move, you know, be that bridge between

**[19:44]** a deep technical conversation and like, okay, this is how it translates to, you know, the

**[19:49]** actual outcome that we're here to pull together.

**[19:54]** So I think there just enables a connection with the customer in a different way.

**[19:59]** Like I understand deeply now the commercial challenges that you likely have and, you know,

**[20:04]** we want to be in service to helping you achieve, you know, achieve those targets.

**[20:10]** So what I, how shall I say, what I also try to catch myself from doing too often is being

**[20:16]** the solutioning person, I don't want to be the person that's like, oh, no, no, this is

**[20:22]** how you should do it.

**[20:23]** Like that, you know, but to be there to support the conversation and, you know, again, bring

**[20:27]** maybe a different point of view.

**[20:31]** But yeah, it's for me, it's the part that I've always just loved about this business

**[20:37]** is walking into a company, you know, I've spent, you know, two years working with Honeywell

**[20:42]** as an example, I know more about valves and actuators and, you know, thermostats and things

**[20:49]** and then certainly than I did two years ago, but, but it's just a, it's a, it's real privilege,

**[20:56]** I guess, that we, that we have in this space to work with customers, help them achieve

**[21:00]** their business goals.

**[21:01]** And you get to learn so much about different, different industries.

**[21:04]** So that's, that's the part I've always just loved about being in solutioning.

**[21:08]** And I'm really excited now, I get to kind of keep that element, but also lead the business.

**[21:14]** Yeah.

**[21:15]** And I think, I think that technical competence adds a lot to that trust equation too, even

**[21:20]** if, even if you're not the one leading the full depth of it, every single, you know,

**[21:25]** detail of it, but showing that you have the level of competence technically, I think especially

**[21:29]** if it's a technical sale or there's some deep technical components to it, I think can bridge

**[21:35]** a lot of trust.

**[21:36]** I mean, quite a few sellers, even CROs where they can't really speak the language run into

**[21:45]** a lot of trouble.

**[21:46]** Yes.

**[21:47]** And, you know, there's, you can, um, and I think we probably all have had, had that experience

**[21:53]** at, at some time or another.

**[21:55]** And you know, I think it's maybe not for the industry that, that we're in and the solutions

**[22:02]** that we're selling, I think it is a real advantage, right?

**[22:04]** Because it does lean technical, we're talking about, you know, digital transformation and

**[22:09]** these types of, of topics.

**[22:11]** Um, you know, there may be some types of solutions where it's less of an asset, um, and, and

**[22:17]** not required.

**[22:18]** But I think, um, in the space that, that we're operating in, uh, at ZuVu, uh, it is a real

**[22:24]** benefit.

**[22:25]** Um, and you know, I think thus far customers have, have appreciated that.

## 22:31 — New in the CRO seat: helping enough, but not too much

**[22:31]** What's been the biggest challenge stepping into a chief revenue officer role that maybe

**[22:38]** you didn't anticipate?

**[22:41]** You know, I think the, one of the, one of the bigger challenges is just right now like

**[22:49]** time management and, um, and, and helping enough, but not helping too much, right?

**[22:56]** So I think, uh, again, it's, it's a tendency, you know, you're new in the role and I want

**[23:00]** to get involved in as many, you know, I want to have visibility to all the opportunities

**[23:05]** and you know, like really help the team.

**[23:07]** Um, but I also want them to, to help themselves, uh, as well.

**[23:11]** And I think that, you know, over the course of the past quarter has been one of the, um,

**[23:15]** coming out of, of Q3 is one of the biggest lessons I've learned is that, um, that you

**[23:22]** can be too involved in, in some of the day to day stuff.

**[23:26]** Um, and, you know, you give the team the tools, you, you know, set them up for success and

**[23:31]** you really, you know, like, I don't need to be in every sales call.

**[23:35]** I don't need to be in every meeting.

**[23:37]** And I think there was a tendency, uh, early on to, to try and be too involved.

**[23:42]** Um, and, and now I think, uh, we're, we're moving beyond that and, and I, the team more

**[23:50]** thinks of me as a, uh, like a, this is going to sound, but like a tool to use at the right

**[23:55]** time in their deal, right?

**[23:57]** Versus, you know, coming to every meeting and sitting in and listening and like, we're

**[24:01]** beyond that now.

**[24:02]** So that to me was one of the, just a lesson that I learned is to, to let go a little bit.

**[24:08]** The team knows what they're doing.

**[24:09]** And then, you know, just the, the whole kind of 360 degree view of, of the business, um,

**[24:15]** and in trying to find enough time to, to be of service, like to me, I've always, uh, thought

**[24:21]** of being a leader as a service job, right?

**[24:23]** Like I'm in service to the team, um, and ensuring that I have enough time to still provide that

**[24:30]** service, if you will, um, is important to me.

**[24:33]** So not just having conversations about deal progression, but you know, how are you doing?

**[24:38]** Um, you know, what do you want to accomplish next year?

**[24:41]** What are your longterm goals?

**[24:42]** How do I set you up for success in that way?

**[24:44]** Um, finding time to still do that is also really important to me.

## 24:49 — Making AEs solution-led; TAMs over CSMs

**[24:49]** Have you had any big perspective changes on the value of any one of the go to market functions

**[24:56]** where maybe you had some assumptions about the value they bring, how they operate, and

**[25:02]** you had a new perspective once you took ownership of them.

**[25:06]** What I want to see is more solutioning from the account executive team, right?

**[25:14]** So you know, before I took on the CRO role, CRO role, I was leading the customer success

**[25:20]** function and over like, you know, the sort of year and a half that I was doing that we've

**[25:25]** transformed that side of the business to be much more solution forward.

**[25:30]** So I have more technical account managers in that team than I have like traditional customer

**[25:36]** success managers.

**[25:37]** You know, we still have commercial oversight, but the team leans very heavily solution technical

**[25:45]** forward.

**[25:46]** So, so I want to start to mirror that in the sales function, right?

**[25:51]** Where the account executives, right?

**[25:53]** They should be leaning on the solutions or, you know, the sales engineers, solutions engineers

**[25:59]** much later in the cycles that I think we currently are.

**[26:02]** And so that's a real focus, you know, kind of closing out this year, but certainly at

**[26:07]** the start of next year is they all have to be much more capable of not just that sort

**[26:13]** of solutions led discovery, but, you know, being able to walk through a demonstration

**[26:20]** in the context of a customer, right?

**[26:22]** Not just a click path, but like, this is important to you because I just spent, you know, a discovery

**[26:27]** call learning about that.

**[26:28]** And I think that is like a real priority for me is to make the account executives sort

**[26:36]** of help them become more solution-y-esque, if you will, and use true sales engineers

**[26:43]** for like things like custom demonstrations, POCs, workshops where we're going to, you

**[26:49]** know, do some deep solutioning.

**[26:52]** That's really where their value comes into play.

**[26:55]** So I think that's definitely a priority.

**[26:59]** Yeah, I just think it's interesting because the CRO role just covers such a wide breadth

**[27:05]** of functions with aligned targets and aligned accountability, but really, really different

**[27:12]** functions.

**[27:13]** And, and I think, you know, personally, I came up through customer success, then RevOps,

**[27:19]** then in 2021, I started LeanScale, which meant I got to do all of my own sales and

**[27:25]** marketing and customer success and everything else that comes with it.

**[27:28]** And I just remember thinking like, oh, I had a lot of assumptions about maybe marketing

**[27:32]** or sales, and now that I own them, like I have deeper appreciation for some of the challenges

**[27:38]** that they have to go through.

**[27:39]** Yes.

**[27:40]** And I think that's another, you know, coming into this role and like really kind of peeling

**[27:45]** back the covers and understanding what, you know, like much more deeply the functions

**[27:52]** of the marketing organization and how we bring that to bear into sales.

**[27:58]** You know, we spent, you know, really this past quarter kind of realigning marketing

**[28:05]** with this new sort of commercial organization, you know, so that we can operate more closely

**[28:12]** as a combined team versus separate entities.

**[28:16]** And so that actually, you know, kind of going back to, you know, a question you asked earlier

**[28:19]** about one of the challenges of being new in the role, that that has also been, you know,

**[28:25]** a challenge like how are we aligning inbound and outbound strategy?

**[28:28]** How are they performing?

**[28:29]** And, you know, just all those metrics that go into understanding which levers that, you

**[28:34]** know, next quarter, we might want to tweak a little bit to get a little bit more of a

**[28:38]** certain type of opportunity flow.

**[28:39]** And right.

**[28:40]** So that's that's still a learning curve and a learning process for me, for sure.

**[28:44]** But we've got great partners in the organization.

**[28:49]** Absolutely.

## 28:50 — RevOps on a dotted line

**[28:50]** Is RevOps part of your remit?

**[28:53]** So dotted line.

**[28:55]** So yeah, RevOps reports into the CFO.

**[28:59]** But obviously we're super close partners.

**[29:01]** And I have an amazing RevOps manager who really just keeps the wheels turning.

**[29:08]** So she's amazing.

**[29:09]** But yeah, she reports up through the CFO.

**[29:12]** But we're like, you know, dotted line, if you will.

**[29:15]** She's a super important part of the team.

**[29:18]** Is there anything in particular that you feel like she's been able to unlock to help you

**[29:23]** get the visibility or management across the entire go to market life cycle?

**[29:29]** For sure.

**[29:30]** You know, especially on the new business side, working with the account executives to keep

**[29:37]** Salesforce clean and up to date, but not not in a way that's just about, you know, update

**[29:42]** your Salesforce, but how it then drives into how we look at deal progression and linearity

**[29:48]** and just keeping that part of the organization moving.

**[29:56]** She's super, super important to the team from that respect.

**[30:04]** So I think from a RevOps perspective, because she has visibility to sort of much like I

**[30:11]** do, kind of all of the opportunities from net new business, you know, services, business,

**[30:18]** renewals, upsells, the whole thing.

**[30:20]** And so she's a really great partner, you know, as we start to see patterns in how deals move

**[30:26]** out of new business and, you know, they're coming up for the first renewal, what are

**[30:29]** we seeing?

**[30:30]** So, you know, a really, really important part of how we're trying to transform the business.

## 30:39 — AI in GTM: Gong deal patterns, Langdock, and board prep

**[30:39]** It wouldn't be a podcast in 2026 if I didn't ask, how are you leveraging AI in your go-to-market

**[30:48]** function?

**[30:49]** Are there any novel ways you're leveraging AI or things that have surprised you unlocking

**[30:54]** any levels of productivity, efficiency, effectiveness?

**[30:59]** So so yes, we're using AI in a variety of ways.

**[31:02]** So, transparently, I think we need to utilize it a little bit more and automate some things.

**[31:10]** I think everybody feels that way.

**[31:12]** Yeah, yeah.

**[31:13]** I don't know if anybody's sitting there thinking like, wow, I bet I'm the best user of AI in

**[31:18]** the market right now.

**[31:19]** No, I was just at lunch with our CEO, and he was walking me through his setup and like

**[31:26]** what things he's automated, I'm like, you know, can you just like copy, can I copy and

**[31:30]** paste that?

**[31:31]** So, so we all have our own ways in our day-to-day that we're using it to optimize for, you know,

**[31:39]** for efficiency and time and all of these things, but, you know, just from a like a business

**[31:45]** management perspective, like leveraging the tools and what they have to offer is like

**[31:51]** the first step, right?

**[31:52]** So you know, between, you know, Gong and Salesforce, and you know, being able to use, you know,

**[31:58]** like Gong does a really great job of giving you a perspective on where deals are stuck

**[32:03]** and why and what patterns can you see and, you know, I want to, it was just a conversation

**[32:07]** I was having with my RevOps manager, you know, I want to start unpacking like, you know,

**[32:14]** we see some deals that move very efficiently through the sale cycle, and some that seem

**[32:19]** to stall, stall, stall, and they both close, but what are we, what are we doing well in

**[32:25]** the deals that are progressing quickly and can we start to detect some patterns compared

**[32:30]** to the ones that aren't, right?

**[32:32]** So that, that sort of mining of like all the call data and, you know, that type of information

**[32:38]** is really interesting and we now need to operationalize that, right?

**[32:43]** So you take the learnings and then you operationalize that, you know, I use it, we have a solution

**[32:51]** internally it's called Langdoc, which allows you to connect, right?

**[32:55]** So it's your sort of private AI space within your company, it leverages all the LLMs, but

**[33:00]** you can connect Jira, Salesforce, Gong, you can connect all your tools, so you get a holistic

**[33:06]** view.

**[33:07]** So when I'm preparing, you know, for board meetings and things like that, it becomes

**[33:10]** super useful to get that kind of first view before AI, we used to just spend so much time

**[33:16]** preparing board decks and now we spend time thinking about the narrative because we have

**[33:21]** all the data, it's just so much more efficient.

**[33:23]** But what I also notice is you can like, you know, rely on it too much.

**[33:28]** I've seen Claude or, you know, tools create decks and you're just like that, you can't

**[33:34]** put that in front of a customer, right?

**[33:36]** It's great, great to help you get started.

**[33:39]** So we just have to hold ourselves accountable, like AI, it can't do our jobs, it can help

**[33:44]** us do our jobs, but it can't do it for us.

**[33:47]** And you know, we have to pay attention to that.

**[33:50]** Yeah, I was a board deck man at all the companies I was at when I was running RevOps and it

**[33:56]** was like pulling together all the data, putting everything in.

**[34:00]** We would spend one to two weeks getting ready for a board meeting.

**[34:06]** So having AI powered board decoration is a really, really nice thing now.

**[34:13]** On board meetings, I always felt like those were some of the most stressful things to

**[34:20]** prepare for.

**[34:21]** And I know there's always like so much going on to get ready for those.

**[34:25]** For other executives listening, any tips or thoughts on how to have a really good board

**[34:31]** meeting?

**[34:32]** I mean, this is one of the values of AI because it can pull together the content really quickly

**[34:40]** and then you actually spend the time with the rest of the executive team preparing and

**[34:48]** understanding exactly every number, what it means, how it ties in.

**[34:53]** So I mean, there's no secret sauce other than just be overly prepared, know what every number

**[35:00]** means on every slide and why it's there and that's just time and prep.

**[35:07]** So on the one hand, AI really helps get all of that stood up, but then you just have to

**[35:13]** spend the time just like absorbing the information into your being so that you just, you know,

**[35:21]** that's what boards want, right?

**[35:23]** They're going to find one number on the slide and they're going to be like, well, what does

**[35:27]** that one mean?

**[35:28]** And you have to know, you just have to know, yeah.

**[35:33]** I think it's really, really good advice.

## 35:35 — From sales engineering to the executive seat

**[35:35]** One thing I was also hoping to pick your brain on, I know there's a lot of people who are

**[35:39]** in sales engineering solution roles, they're very ambitious about their career.

**[35:46]** It seems like the path up is leading into that CROC.

**[35:51]** If you can use your career kind of as a roadmap, what are some things that somebody currently

**[35:57]** sitting in a sales engineering role or solutions engineering role can do to start marching

**[36:02]** towards an executive position?

**[36:04]** You know, it's kind of like reflecting that discovery process back on yourself, but like

**[36:09]** be curious and, you know, inquisitive and ask people about, you know, what they're doing

**[36:16]** and how can you help?

**[36:18]** You know, I think there's no better way to kind of grow your career than to, in some

**[36:24]** respects it's what I did.

**[36:26]** Like I tried a lot of things over the course of my career and it teaches you the things

**[36:30]** that you really enjoy, like didn't love doing implementations.

**[36:35]** But what I did love was actually kind of solving the problems for customers as we were working

**[36:41]** together that, you know, sort of springboards me into, you know, sales engineering where,

**[36:46]** you know, you can take that experience and apply it to, well, you know, hey, this is

**[36:50]** what I learned when we were implementing, you know, e-commerce at Chevron Phillips and

**[36:55]** it kind of sounds like you have the same, right, so just trying things and looking for

**[37:02]** opportunities.

**[37:03]** Find great mentors, you know, I think I've had the privilege of having really great mentors

**[37:11]** along the way to bounce ideas off of.

**[37:14]** But I think, again, if you're in sales engineering and you want to grow, and this is, again, sort

**[37:22]** of advice I've given to people on my teams for a long time, right, there really are a

**[37:27]** few paths that, three or four paths that you can go on and it's up to you to discover which

**[37:33]** really resonates with you.

**[37:34]** I see people in sales engineering move into like a product organization.

**[37:38]** They want to do product management or even product engineering because they love that

**[37:42]** like deep technical, they like to build things, right, so you have to be a little bit self-aware

**[37:47]** and understand like what you enjoy.

**[37:50]** If you love the art of the deal, you're probably going to go up through a, you know, an account

**[37:53]** executive path.

**[37:55]** I've worked with some amazing solutions engineers who, they don't want to manage people, they

**[38:01]** just want to go talk to customers in solution and they're like phenomenal at their job and

**[38:06]** they know that, right, they know like I don't want to be a people manager, right, and so

**[38:10]** they have that self-awareness to know that this is the path that they want to go on and

**[38:14]** there are growth paths just to stay in solutions engineering, right, if that's really what

**[38:19]** you love.

**[38:20]** So it's, you got to be a little bit self-aware and understand like if you tell yourself you

**[38:27]** like sales engineering, start asking yourself what specifically about what you're doing

**[38:33]** do you really love and that I think will guide you into the next step of the process.

**[38:38]** Yeah, because it is a very dynamic role.

**[38:41]** It's not only technical, it's not only selling, it's not only front-end facing.

**[38:46]** There is some management involved too and pulling people in to get the solution ready

**[38:50]** to go.

**[38:51]** So I think knowing that, I agree, it's like okay, of this very diverse set of responsibilities

**[39:00]** I have, what's really filling my tank on these?

**[39:03]** Exactly, exactly, yeah, and for me it was I just want to control everything.

**[39:11]** Well you have to have some level of yeah, no, you have to walk around and think oh things

**[39:16]** could be better and I think I have an idea of how that could be the case.

**[39:21]** Yeah, exactly, and so you know I'm certainly, you know, half the battle is you know taking

**[39:28]** advantage when the opportunity presents itself.

## 39:31 — Solutioning after the sale: renewals that sell themselves

**[39:31]** So when people think about solutions, consulting, sales engineering, often they're thinking

**[39:36]** oh they're coming in during that new logo acquisition phase, they're helping frame up

**[39:42]** the POC perhaps and then helping close the deal.

**[39:45]** Do you see solutions engineers or sales engineers also working post-close on the customer success

**[39:51]** side?

**[39:53]** We do and again it's one of the sort of transitions that we have been working on for the past

**[40:01]** 18 months or so to sort of transition that post-sales team into a more solutioning type

**[40:08]** of approach, right?

**[40:09]** So rather than just kind of focus on a renewals type of organization where we're thinking

**[40:15]** about renewals, we're constantly thinking about solutions and solutioning.

**[40:19]** So we have essentially a team of, you know, we call them technical account managers but

**[40:23]** they're really post-sales solutions engineers and they have their book of business, you

**[40:28]** know, the six or eight accounts that they're really deeply embedded with and that's what

**[40:33]** they do, you know, they're talking to customers about what their initiatives are and coming

**[40:38]** up with solutions and doing projects, right?

**[40:41]** So this is really the transformation we've seen in the business is when we're like focused

**[40:47]** on that solutioning in the, you know, with existing customers, it manifests itself as

**[40:54]** cool projects.

**[40:55]** They're like, oh, I didn't know you could do that, right, like, which is the very essence

**[40:58]** of solutioning is applying, you know, maybe something that you didn't think of to a problem

**[41:04]** and they're like, oh yeah, well, you know, it seems like a great thing that we should

**[41:07]** do and so we see a real growth in like the number of projects that we're doing with customers

**[41:13]** and so when you're actively working with customers that way and you're working on projects and

**[41:17]** delivering solutions, the commercial part of it actually becomes the less stressful

**[41:23]** part of the business, right, the renewals are much easier.

**[41:27]** We see a lot more long-term type of renewals and so yeah, we've applied that concept of

**[41:33]** solutioning directly into the existing business, yeah, we have dedicated technical teams that

**[41:38]** that's what they're doing, you know, with customers day in and day out.

**[41:42]** I think very few teams are that proactive about the post-sale process and I think it's

**[41:49]** a massive opportunity if you can extend the LTV, if you can really manufacture some expansion

**[41:56]** and upsells, it takes so much, so much pressure off of the marketing side of the house to

**[42:02]** drive pipeline, the sales team to land new logos.

**[42:06]** This side of the house is so expensive, risky, difficult and if you can continue to expand

**[42:13]** and retain your base, the results are incredible, yes, and it is just a sort of a connective

**[42:22]** circle, right, if we're doing really good solutioning up front, we've teed up a pathway

**[42:28]** for that customer to continue to grow with us.

**[42:31]** It's not a, hey, you bought this thing, you throw it over the wall and the customer success

**[42:36]** team is going to pick it up, right, you've essentially created the blueprint for that

**[42:40]** expansion and then we have the, you know, the technical post-sales team come in and

**[42:44]** really focus on driving those results with customers and, you know, customers I think

**[42:50]** are overall quite appreciative of that, that they have a real partner, not just in, you

**[42:56]** know, the commercial side but, you know, really getting value out of the technical solution

**[43:00]** that they bought.

**[43:01]** Well, I think that makes a ton of sense on that side of the house and applying that solutions

**[43:06]** mindset really seems like it can have a major impact across the entire go-to-market lifecycle

**[43:12]** and, Julie, I really appreciate everything you shared.

**[43:15]** I think it's such a cool experience to come up through the solution engineering side of

**[43:20]** the house, end up in the pinnacle role of go-to-market and then be in a position to

**[43:25]** oversee the whole thing and I know there are lots of people who have the CRO position on

**[43:31]** their mindset and I think it's very cool that you've carved out that path for them.

**[43:36]** So, Julie, I appreciate everything you shared on the podcast.

**[43:38]** I know it's going to be very helpful for anybody who has listened in and I can't wait to see

**[43:44]** how your role develops and what you do next.

## 43:48 — Closing thoughts: the CRO role is solutioning at scale

**[43:48]** Yeah, I appreciate it.

**[43:50]** I've really enjoyed the conversation, Anthony.

**[43:52]** Thank you and, you know, my closing thought is, you know, for all those solutions folks

**[44:00]** out there, you know, you have that ability, you know, we see solutions so uniquely and

**[44:11]** the CRO, yes, you know, pinnacle role, whatever we want to call it, it's really just about

**[44:18]** solutioning on a bigger scale, right?

**[44:20]** So you just kind of keep that mindset going, I think.

**[44:24]** I would love, you know, next year, a couple of years from now to see quite a lot more

**[44:30]** people in a CRO role that look a lot more like me than a traditional quota carrot, not

**[44:36]** nothing against them, but, you know, that have come up through the solutions ranks.

**[44:40]** I think we just, we bring a unique perspective.

**[44:43]** Well, I think one thing I'll remember from this conversation is always be solutioning.

**[44:49]** Exactly, exactly.

**[44:50]** Well said.

**[44:51]** Thank you, Julie.

**[44:52]** Take care.

**[44:53]** Take care.

**[44:54]** Thank you.