90% of Reps Don't Prep: The LEGO Booth Playbook

0:00 A good question for a sales rep, which I rarely get asked is why do we win, why do we lose?

0:06 My guest today is Shani Shoham, Chief Revenue Officer at OpenObserve.

0:11 Shani has spent 15 years building go-to-market for developer and infrastructure companies.

0:16 When you started doing this in 2017, you could point in an SDR team, an outbound,

0:21 and it just worked. A lot of those just don't even work anymore.

0:26 Tickets fatigue, every channel works until it doesn't.

0:29 Let's talk about a place where you cannot fake it, is events.

0:34 You know, if you've been to conferences, especially tech conferences, you know,

0:37 everybody has the purple boot, the dark boot, the blue boot, they're wearing the company's t-shirt.

0:43 I also think it's really important for the CRO download marketing, it's just your point.

0:47 There's one person countable, there's no finger pointing.

0:51 You know, whatever is working might not work in 12 months,

0:56 which is why you constantly need to experiment with new things and never settle for the status quo.

1:16 When you started doing this in 2017, you could point in an SDR team, an outbound,

1:21 and it just worked. Then LinkedIn webinars were working, pulling in 1,500 people per webinar.

1:27 Private dinners after COVID, a lot of those just don't even work anymore.

1:32 What do you think is actually going on underneath that pattern?

1:38 I think it's fatigue. I think it's, you know, prospect pay attention to one channel,

1:44 then, you know, everybody starts using that channel and, you know, and that's the reason

1:51 that it stops working. You know, I think LinkedIn webinars is something that was relatively new,

1:58 and so that's why it worked. And then most companies started moving from, I don't know,

2:04 124 and Zoom webinars to doing LinkedIn, and that's kind of why it stopped working.

2:12 The same thing around COVID, you know, everybody was looking to meet others in person and going

2:20 back to regular life, and so it worked for a while. And then, you know, nowadays, I feel overwhelmed

2:27 with the amount of events that I get invited to. And so, yeah, I think every channel works until

2:37 it doesn't. Are there any trends or signs that you start to see to get ahead of the change or

2:46 start leveraging the latest channel? As you're planning out your year, how do you tend to think

2:50 about which channels to double down on or to start to pull back on? It's a good question,

2:56 I think, and I'll also that maybe a little bit differently. So, at any point, I'll probably,

3:05 you know, one, depending on the capacity of the team, I'll probably one, not necessarily,

3:12 you know, in parallel, but eight to 10 experiments. I just, you know, I just think back on an

3:19 experiment that I went with another company that we came last week. A month ago, we were looking

3:25 at buying 10 platforms, and I was pretty sure that, you know, since the days of six cents and

3:33 bumboa, things have changed. And so I was like, you know, let's reevaluate that. And again,

3:38 I think it's another experiment that failed. So again, at every moment, I run about, you know,

3:44 eight to 10 experiments, and I know that majority of them will fail, but one or two of those

3:50 experiments will be successful. The way that I, you know, that I get inspired around those

3:55 experiments is I'm constantly reading, probably getting like 15 newsletters every day. And I,

4:03 you know, while I walk out, I try to read them and between meetings, et cetera. And so that's one

4:09 area of inspiration for me. And then the other thing is just observing people. I know we're

4:15 going to talk later about conferences. I've been doing conferences for many years, and

4:20 it kind of became a habit for me, you know, to observe, you know, which booths are working

4:27 better, how people react to certain things. And, and that's kind of what inspires me to say, oh,

4:34 you know, the next conference, we should do that. I mean, that's kind of how I try to figure out

4:40 what's, you know, what's working and what's not. It's just for experimentation.

4:46 Alongside of the experiments, are there any channels in your opinion that are foundational,

4:52 they're always going to work as long as you put some investment behind them, or is everything fair

4:59 game to have this half life? You're putting me on the spot here. And I, you know, it's a podcast,

5:08 and so it's going to be there for a while. And I can say that something will forever work. And

5:14 someone's going to pull that podcast in five, 10 years and say it was wrong. But I, you know,

5:23 I think content, so again, I'll look back at history, and it doesn't necessarily mean that

5:29 what worked is going to work forever. But I think content has always been a significant pillar in

5:38 terms of, you know, especially in terms of marketing and awareness. The type of content

5:48 might have changed, I think, you know, 10 years ago, it was a lot of blog posts, you know, then it

5:57 became video and user generated content. And now it's more AEO, but I think content is definitely

6:06 in some shape or form has been around forever. And I also, you know, I think maybe a little bit

6:13 with the exception of during COVID, which was kind of a real time, the human connection has always

6:20 been there, you know, in some shape or form. And it's, you know, whether it was conferences,

6:26 whether it was private events, lunch and learns, and things like that. I mean, ultimately, we're

6:34 human, we're social, we, and so again, there might be some variances around that. But

6:42 I really hope that that's not going to change anytime soon. But yeah, those are probably two

6:47 pillars that I can think of. Yeah, I hope it doesn't change too. I mean, I enjoy the conveniences of

6:53 working from home. I have three young children when we're on the way. And I like being able to

6:58 do that. But I do still, especially if it's a big deal, it's a big hire, if it's something really

7:02 important, or you want to learn something, it's pretty tough to beat in person. Yeah, and you

7:07 know, now that I know we're going to talk later about AI, and, you know, I don't know what I

7:15 look for in sales reps, but I think the, you know, one thing that AI is not going to be able to replace

7:22 is that human connection and that, you know, I call that EQ. And so, you know, being sensitive to

7:32 one's body language, being sensitive to what, you know, one is saying, you just said that you have

7:38 a baby on the way. I, you know, I'm definitely going to make a mental note of that. And, you know,

7:45 when we meet in a few months, I'm going to ask you about how's your new baby is doing. And I mean,

7:51 that's, you know, that's just a fundamental element of, you know, two people engaging in a

7:59 conversation. I recently read a book that says that people, you know, in the sales process,

8:07 prospect is making decision if he's going to buy from you in the first two or three minutes, and

8:14 then he's spending the rest of the time just justifying that decision. And so, and again,

8:20 I think a big part of that is, you know, do I like the other guy? Do I trust the other guy? And so,

8:27 you know, building trust and emotional intelligence is definitely a big part of that. So I, you know,

8:35 I think that sales reps and generally people that, you know, have that emotional intelligence and pay

8:44 attention to those cues. That's probably an important skill to own in, you know, in the next

8:50 couple of years. I think so too. And I do agree. Trust and accountability are things that can't

8:58 be owned in that equation between a person and an AI. It has to be another person on the other side

9:04 for that equation to actually hold true. And even if, even if you are executing certain things between

9:12 AI agents, let's say it does get there, which I don't think it will, especially for enterprise

9:17 or B2B, but let's assume even it does. You still need to tie who owns those agents and have trust

9:24 and accountability between the people who own the agents themselves. So I agree. I don't think it's

9:29 going anywhere. And I think in fact, it's going to make it even more important to stand out that way.

9:37 100%. I can, you know, I interviewed an SDR a few months ago and I, you know, I really wanted to

9:47 give this guy a chance. And he was, you know, we had kind of, you know, a life journey that wasn't

9:55 traditional and, you know, a lot of hardships. And I, you know, I really wanted to give him a chance,

10:01 but, you know, his interview was so, so, and so I gave him an assignment, a simple assignment for,

10:08 you know, for an SDR, just give me, you know, find two prospects and create, you know, a

10:15 three-step sequence of how you target them. And I was really looking for, you know, whether he's

10:23 gonna find the prospect and, you know, personalize the outreach based on, I don't know, based on a

10:32 podcast, based on a video. He could have chosen any prospect. And so I, you know, if it was up to me,

10:39 I would probably find someone that's very outgoing and constantly, you know, blogging and, you know,

10:45 does podcasts and videos. And I would, you know, find something that he mentioned that 99% of the

10:55 SDRs would probably not even pay attention to. And instead he just went to Che GPT and he pretty much

11:03 gave me the, you know, he literally copy pasted from Che GPT. I could see all the icons and the

11:09 long dash and stuff like that. And I told him, listen, if I wanted AI to do that, then I would

11:17 just buy an AI SDR. And again, I think that's becoming a commodity and we're all getting,

11:25 I definitely see that every day I have probably 40, 50 emails in my inbox that start with the same

11:32 structure of, you know, congrats on your new world. I'm reaching out because, you know, we work with

11:39 companies in your industry. Here's an example of a company, et cetera. And I can think of one company

11:47 that reached out to me. I think it was actually a few years ago, but they literally mentioned

11:54 something that I said on the podcast a while back. And those are the things that stand out. And again,

12:02 those are the things that, that's the level of, you know, diligence that I think people need to

12:10 do nowadays in order to stand out. Because again, we're all getting bombarded with AI generated

12:16 emails and stuff. And so again, going back to that human connection that, that, that we need to

12:24 leverage and, you know, smart people actually, you know, do that. So well, let's talk about a place

12:32 where you cannot fake it. And one of the channels that does seem to be getting even more investment

12:39 now and really driving a lot of the revenue, the companies that we're working with is events.

12:46 So if you're going to industry events, if you're going to trade shows, even like smaller,

12:52 maybe local pop-up type of events too, how do you approach these and how do you make sure you stand

12:58 out? Yeah, it's a good point. And I think it goes back to again, understanding humans. So I'll give

13:06 you an example. You know, a few years ago, I was advising a relatively small company and, you know,

13:12 this was post COVID we're back to doing conferences. And, you know, naturally, you know, if you've been

13:20 to conferences, especially tech conferences, you know, everybody has the purple booth, the dark

13:25 booth, the blue booth, they're wearing the company's t-shirt. It's again, typically the same color.

13:31 It's the same. They have the company's logo. It's, you know, it's very hard to stand out. And so I was,

13:41 you know, I was thinking about, you know, the conferences, it's a pretty cold experience. It's,

13:50 you know, especially if you go by yourself, you don't know anybody, you're walking around,

13:55 you have a bunch of strangers, you know, poking at you and trying to start a conversation. And it's,

14:01 it's not the most fun thing. And so, so I was trying to think how we make it fun and,

14:09 you know, and what kind of, you know, what people are so sad with a warm experience. And it's,

14:16 there's a couple of things, but, you know, dogs and pets, definitely one, you know, kids is another

14:24 thing. You know, and one of the ideas I came up back then was Lego. And so everybody likes Lego.

14:31 We all played Lego and we were kids. And so I, you know, we branded our entire booth as, you know,

14:40 in the Lego theme. We actually had an artist at the booth that was, you know, was drawing people

14:48 as Lego figures. And then, you know, we found a vendor that would print a fully custom figure in,

15:00 you know, Lego figure in that, that, that we would give them the next day. And we were wearing these,

15:06 I actually have one of these shirts. And so we're wearing these funky shirts and,

15:13 and funny enough, like four years later, I, I've been going back to this conference almost every

15:18 year. And four years later, I met someone and, and it was like, I remember you. It took him like a

15:26 minute and then he was like, oh, you're the guy with the, with the Lego, the Lego theme, the Lego

15:32 shirt. And, and I was like, wow, four years down the line, you still remember that. So again,

15:38 I think it's about creating a memorable experience. It's about creating a, you know, something that

15:46 would feel different. Last year we did, we did the same conference again and I'm probably, you know,

15:54 I'm starting to reveal all my trade secrets, but what the heck the, and so I was thinking again,

16:01 how do we differentiate? You have all these blue and purple and, and so I, I came up with the theme

16:08 of, you know, summer vacation. This was the conference in Europe in the middle of the winter.

16:16 You know, it was close to minus degrees. It was raining. And, and so I was like, I mean,

16:24 you all wish that you were, you were in some, you know, topical island, et cetera.

16:30 And so we had these, you know, we were wearing like hats with straw hats and, and short pants

16:40 and flip-flops in the middle of the winter. And we had these like funky shirts. That's awesome.

16:47 We had an led backward instead of like your typical static, you know, backward. And so pretty

16:55 much from the, you know, if you're standing at the end of the hall and, you know, looking left and

17:02 right, you would see like this led world that's, you know, with images changing and you would see

17:08 the, you know, as we were walking down the eyes, you know, we were, we clearly stood out because

17:14 we didn't have these, you know, I don't know, black shirts or purple shirts or blue shirts. And so,

17:21 so yeah, I mean, that's kind of how you, you know, you stand out in a conference and you

17:27 just think about what's one, what's people's experience and feeling when they go for a

17:32 conference and, you know, how do you create something that's warm and fuzzy. And so, yeah,

17:41 one of my, on my wish list is, you know, I mentioned that people like dogs and I would love to

17:48 like bring a bunch of, you know, dogs to a conference. I think logistically and insurance

17:54 wise, that's probably a little more complex, but yeah, I mean, maybe at some point the,

18:01 the shirts and in the led world is not going to work and we're going to need to

18:06 figure out a way to bring dogs. But, but yeah, I mean, that's, that's a good example of,

18:12 you know, standing out and then, you know, a lot of people, they, they ask you, well,

18:18 why do you wear that shirt or what's the idea with the booth? And that's a great conversation

18:22 starter and, and, you know, in all cases, this was a very successful conference for us. I love how

18:31 you're already thinking of the half-life of the Lego shirt though, where you're saying, okay,

18:36 I know this work then, but we're not going to be able to do the same thing. I'm pretty certain if

18:40 you feel a booth full of puppies that people are going to come visit and stop by and spend some

18:44 time at the booth. I just need the organizers to be on board with that. But you're right. I,

18:50 you know, we did the Lego and then I, you know, I think a year after I started seeing a bunch of

18:55 companies, you know, use the same theme of Lego a little bit differently, but kind of the giveaways

19:02 were similar, et cetera. And so I, so yeah, you got, you got to think, you know, kind of a few

19:10 steps ahead. I'll, I'll share maybe one last thing that, that we kind of did in the last conference.

19:16 And so, which was essentially printing people's mini me. And so, yeah, you know, logistically,

19:26 it was, it took a while to figure it out, but we've kind of been putting in the conference,

19:34 you know, for certain high value prospects, we've been printing,

19:39 you know, an image of them in 3D and, and have them essentially come back the next day to pick

19:48 it up. And so that was another kind of unique experience that, and it's something that goes

19:55 back with you. It's actually a month ago, we did that for an analyst and a month ago we had,

20:00 we had a call with that analyst and I, I literally, I saw that sitting on his desk and, you know,

20:07 right behind him. And so that was, that was pretty cool to see. So again, it's all about

20:13 creating a memorable experience that, you know, which, which is the reason that

20:21 prospects would, you know, would, would talk to you, would go by the booth. And then again,

20:28 you got to make sure, of course, there's a hook and there's a reason for them to,

20:34 you know, follow up with you after the conference. But if you're, if you're just like anybody, then

20:39 it's the same thing. You'll send an email, it will go to avoid, you know, and pretty much your,

20:45 there goes your ROI on, on conference. So I think a lot of people are afraid to have fun

20:52 with their brand and at events and take themselves too seriously. Where did you drop that fear?

21:00 And it opened up your ability to have fun ideas like this.

21:05 I guess that's the reason I like to work with early stage companies that, you know,

21:09 at the larger company, I would probably need approval from, you know, a wide range of

21:17 functions from legal, from marketing, et cetera. And I, that's part of why I like working for

21:25 these, these stages. It's, you know, you're not afraid to experiment. You're not afraid,

21:34 you know, to change your brand. You're not afraid to do the right thing.

21:37 And so, yeah, I think it's just, and I'm generally a very creative person if you haven't noticed yet,

21:44 but so, yeah, I, you know, I think having fun is, you know, it's not necessarily bad,

21:52 especially nowadays in, you know, where everybody goes to AI and it's like a very cold experience.

22:00 Let's maybe talk about that. So you have that juxtaposed against like a really fun event,

22:05 fun giveaways, interacting in person. Then you just have this absolute tsunami of AI capabilities

22:15 that have entered go to market teams. So sales teams, marketing teams, they're getting completely

22:21 weaponized with AI to do all kinds of things. Where do you see where you should be taking

22:28 advantage of AI and where you should really be implementing AI in marketing or sales?

22:33 And what should you not be using AI for? So I'll give you an example of where I used AI,

22:42 you know, pretty recently. So recently we designed a website and, you know, historically I would

22:49 hire a designer and I would have him like redesign all the pages and, you know, we'll

22:54 put content in, et cetera, and then we'll migrate the website and there's going to be a bunch of

23:00 issues and, you know, and ranking will drop and traffic will drop, et cetera. And in this case,

23:09 so I hired the same designer to kind of do the homepage and, you know, this was mostly kind of,

23:16 you know, brainstorming on, you know, how we want the website to look like. And at some point,

23:23 I think we kind of landed in a good place and pretty much from there I, you know, we used AI

23:30 for the entire process. So we used AI to create the animations on the website. We used AI to

23:38 create the additional pages. So I would be like, hey, here's our page. Here's the new design for

23:44 the homepage. And I would, you know, I would like you to redesign that page for, you know,

23:51 based on the template. And again, it would, you know, it's still, it's not like a five-minute

23:57 thing. It still took a few hours, but I mean, and then I would, I would say, okay, now let's,

24:06 let's work on SEO and AEO together. What's the, you know, change this header and add some more

24:12 content and look at our comparators website and, you know, suggest some changes and so on and so

24:19 forth. And I think, you know, that process took roughly the same amount of time that it would take

24:25 in the, you know, in the old days, if you will. But, but I think the outcome was way better. The,

24:34 the migration was super smooth. I, you know, I, you typically see those graph where there's a

24:41 drop and then slowly it starts getting back up. And I think in our case it, there was literally,

24:49 you know, zero impact. So that's, that's an example of where we use the AI, you know, to,

24:57 to fully complete that process and something that we, you know, would probably look at very

25:03 differently a few, a few years ago. I also, you know, nowadays in meetings, for example,

25:10 I have a bunch of recorders. I, you know, my ability to follow up on, in a timely manner,

25:17 my ability to remember what we spoke at a prior meeting, you know, significantly enhanced. I

25:25 actually find it interesting, you know, like, like I said, I do, I do a lot of interviews and,

25:32 you know, we're scaling very fast and so I'm probably interviewing two, three reps every day.

25:39 And again, I find myself preparing to, you know, meetings using AI. I have AI going through my

25:45 calendar every day and, you know, combining notes from, you know, from the CRM, from, you know,

25:53 LinkedIn, the web, and essentially preparing me for, for those meetings. And yet I, I find that

26:01 many times reps, you know, they get on these calls and they haven't done basic due diligence. They

26:08 beyond like what's on the homepage and maybe even what's on the hero section, they,

26:13 they can't speak intelligently about, you know, about our company. And, and, and I'm actually

26:21 a little bit surprised with that because again, it's pretty easy to prepare for meetings nowadays.

26:27 And as a sales rep, if you're not preparing for, you know, that one, two interviews that you have

26:33 in a given week, you're definitely not going to prepare for the free-form meetings that you have

26:38 on your calendar every day. And so, so again, those are some areas where, you know, I find AI to be

26:48 both helpful and, and maybe underutilized.

26:53 I'm really surprised to hear that too, because you're essentially a prompt away.

26:57 Hey, I have a sales interview coming up in 10 minutes. Please research the company,

27:04 their competitors, how they're going to market, what channels seem to be working,

27:07 anything they're doing that's unique. And how can I prepare best and,

27:12 and give me a one-pager I can walk in with. That should take two seconds.

27:16 You're right. I, you know, even thinking back to the discussion that we had a few minutes ago about

27:22 the human touch, I, we're doing this, this podcast in a few weeks, that podcast is going to be out.

27:30 I would, you know, I think, like I said, people make decisions in the first couple of minutes.

27:36 I'm pretty sure. And, you know, cause I'm, you know, this is a human nature.

27:41 If someone's going to get on the call and it's going to say, Oh, you know, I listened to your

27:45 podcast. The podcast that you did a few weeks ago, and you mentioned this and that, which is why,

27:53 you know, I really prepared for this interview again. And again, you don't really need to listen

27:58 to the podcast. You can just have AI summarize the key points for you. Very easy to do. I,

28:06 and then again, when I look back, I don't know, five, 10 years ago, whenever I was interviewing

28:12 with a company, I would probably before the first call, I would have five pages ready about, you

28:18 know, the, who the main customers are and, you know, the people and, you know, do I have any

28:24 common connections with them? And I would look at videos of their products, et cetera. And so

28:29 nowadays it's even a lot easier to, you know, prepare for those meetings. And yet, and I have

28:36 a pretty, I mean, I've probably interviewed over 500 sales reps over the last, I don't know, six,

28:44 seven, eight months. And I would say over 90% of them don't, don't even do that basic research. So

28:55 very surprising, but yeah, I mean that, that is the reality today. What do you think is happening?

29:00 Do you think people are getting atrophy because they don't have to manually do some of these

29:05 things and like think through their processes, like you had to do a few years ago, or is this

29:11 just like standard laziness that may have been there before? What do you think is driving that?

29:20 I'll share with you two reflections. Like, I mean, you know, this is just my opinion. I don't,

29:25 you know, it's not something that I've researched or, or anything like that. But I,

29:31 I think I attribute that to two things. So first of all, you know, and it's funny, because

29:38 I talked to friends and, you know, I shared that same experience that I just shared a few minutes

29:44 ago. And everybody's surprised because they hear off layoffs and AI is, you know, taking your job.

29:51 And so, you know, they will expect people to up the game. And I think the reality is I find that,

30:01 and I think it's an evolution over time. You know, our parents used to work for that same company

30:08 for 40 years, you know, and then at some point you probably switch jobs, but you know, you would

30:14 still stay with the same company for a number of years. And I think for all time, you know,

30:21 I remember like 10, 15 years ago, if you didn't stay for, with one company for at least three years,

30:27 it would be a red flag. And nowadays I, you know, I interview folks and some of them have,

30:34 you know, haven't had the same job and been with the same company for,

30:39 for more than two years. And so I think part of it is, you know, people are just switching jobs

30:45 more frequently, at least in, you know, the candidates that I interview, which is mostly

30:51 sales and a little bit of marketing, you know, also the younger generation, I think the standard

30:57 of like, you know, if I'm not happy in this job, I, you know, why should I be miserable? I'm just

31:03 going to move on. Or if my, you know, I like this, you know, I'm working for a manager that I don't

31:10 like. So let me just, you know, switch to another company. I think the switching cost is significantly

31:17 low. And so I think that's one part of it. And, and yeah, the other part is maybe it's just so easy

31:25 nowadays that people just don't do the F or they're like, you know, I'm just going to get on five

31:31 interviews a week and I'm going to do the minimal preparation needed. And, and if those opportunities

31:39 will get to a later stage, then I'll do, you know, I'll do more, more preparation. So I think that

31:46 might be the other part. One thing that I am, you know, missing a lot in these interviews is,

31:53 and again, it might go back to that switching course, but, you know, when I interview websites,

31:58 I, you know, the way that I interviewed with companies was I would see myself in the world

32:05 and I would figure out what pieces of information do I need, one, to be successful in that world,

32:12 and two, to make a decision if I want to join the company or not. And, and yet again, I, you know,

32:18 I, I interview reps and the questions are very basic and, and, you know, I'm kind of scratching

32:27 my head and asking myself, why did he ask that question? How would that question help him,

32:33 you know, figure out whether that's the right opportunity for him or not? So a good question

32:39 for a sales rep, which I rarely get asked is why do we win? Why do we lose your sales rep? You want

32:46 to know that, you know, we don't lose because of the product. We don't lose because of, I don't

32:52 know, because our product is not competitive with whatever or pricing or things like that. And yet I,

32:59 you know, I don't know, I find people asking questions that are, you know, tell me about your

33:05 go-to-market organization. I mean, I don't know how that's going to help you decide if that's the

33:11 right opportunity or not. And honestly, you can go to LinkedIn. You can see who's on the company.

33:18 You can pretty much map who's managing who and, you know, maybe you can ask a question like, hey,

33:23 I saw that your marketing team is such and such people and you recently added that person. Is that,

33:32 you know, is that a valid channel for you? Are you getting enough in bonds? I think, you know,

33:36 this would be a valuable question. But, you know, asking me how my go-to-market organization looks

33:43 like is, I mean, it's, if you have an opportunity to ask two or three questions, that's really one

33:49 of the questions that you want to ask. And so I find it so surprising. And I think a lot of those

33:57 things, if you don't spend enough time and get enough tenure, you may not even realize that some

34:03 of those things are why you're winning or losing or having some setbacks and overcoming some

34:09 adversity within the same role. That doesn't happen in just one year. So I'm definitely not

34:15 advocating, hey, stay in the same business for 20, 40, 50 years. But you should have a few runs

34:25 that are like three years, maybe a four-year run because it's, did you spend enough time somewhere

34:34 to actually go through challenges and actually make an impact and actually see something change

34:39 in scale? Because if you just have a bunch of one-year runs, you're not really picking up anything

34:45 along the way. And you probably didn't even make any major decisions where you had enough time to

34:50 see if those even panned out or not. So when I'm looking at people, it doesn't have to be everyone,

34:57 but I'm scanning resumes and saying, did you have one where you had a three to four-year run

35:01 at a company? Just one, just give me one, where you really dug your heels in and made a commitment

35:08 somewhere. Because otherwise, I'm not confident you're really learning anything along the way.

35:14 I think the sales is generally the lifespan of a sales rep inside the company, especially nowadays.

35:25 I think it's on the shorter side compared to marketing or customer success or maybe even

35:33 engineering. Having said that, I totally agree with you. I can remember the number of times where I

35:43 looked at someone's resume and he's like, I did 270% quota attainment in 2025, and yet they left

35:54 in February of 2026. And I asked the question, well, I mean, you did so well last year. Why did

36:02 you leave? And honestly, it doesn't matter what he's going to say. Logically, it just doesn't make

36:11 sense. And so my manager left. There was restructuring. There was the company restructured the

36:20 entire go-to market team. They pivoted. And I'm like, listen, if you're at a company, and let's

36:26 say there were 10 reps at that company at that stage, and you did 270%, and there was maybe at

36:33 least one or two other reps that hit quota, you just secured, I don't know, $3 million for the

36:39 company. And let's say there were two other reps that, I mean, ultimately the company was doing

36:44 probably like $10 million in 2025. If they're all doing so well, then they wouldn't restructure the

36:52 go-to market team or pivot or whatever it is. And so something doesn't end up here. And I find that

37:00 how to believe that you are the only one that like made 270% and all the other reps like, you know,

37:08 were so shitty that, you know, they had to restructure the team or let go of your manager

37:14 or whatever. And so, yeah, so, and again, I think it goes back to the fact that, you know,

37:24 reps are just not doing a great job at vetting their next opportunity, really being critical

37:30 and intentional about that. And again, making sure, you know, you can still join a company and maybe a

37:36 few more months afterwards, your manager leaves and, you know, you get a new manager that doesn't

37:42 really like you or, you know, decides to bring his own team and stuff like that. But again, that can

37:49 be once in your life that cannot be, you know, your story throughout the last six, seven years.

37:57 And yet I, you know, I find that I would say one or four reps that I interview that's kind of the,

38:05 when you look at their career, the last three companies have been relatively short stints.

38:10 Unfortunately, I think, you know, the market is such that they would still find a job and they

38:15 would still, you know, someone is going to offer, you know, 300k on target, even to those reps and,

38:24 and they're probably not going to be successful there and they're probably gonna, you know,

38:29 the company will restructure the go-to market team and so on and so forth. So, but that's the reality.

38:35 It's just, it's just weird where you would think the supply and demand equation would

38:41 kind of figure itself out. And also, I don't think people realize if you're a sales rep,

38:46 let's assume, I know a lot have ambitions to get into sales management, sales leadership,

38:52 BCRO one day, you usually get those leadership positions when there's turmoil in the company.

38:58 So there's a leader leaves and they have nobody else and you're the rep who was 300% of their

39:05 quota. Hey, maybe we'll make you the leader. That, that's how you get your first in to a

39:10 leadership position. It's usually not happening when everything is going really, really well,

39:15 because then the company can just recruit who already has amazing experience and do it. So.

39:19 Or alternatively, I'll just offer another perspective. All the company has grown so

39:23 fast and you're the founding AE or you're one of the first AEs and you know, you did phenomenally

39:31 well and they hired a bunch of reps and needed someone to train them and manage them. And so you,

39:38 again, the company was growing so fast and you're going with the company and I,

39:42 which I think is, is a phenomenal, uh, journey. Yeah. Well, I guess you only find out if you

39:49 stay around a little bit, those opportunities present himself after time. And I think, you know,

39:56 maybe I'll, I'll, I'll turn that around. Cause I, you know, it feels like the last couple of minutes

40:01 were a little bit too negative. So I'll turn that around and I'll, I'll tell you kind of what I'm

40:06 looking for, uh, for reps when I hired them. So, uh, you know, beyond kind of the standard,

40:13 you know, salesmanship, et cetera. So I look for people that can learn. And so, uh, I typically

40:20 asked them to give me an example of something new that they learned. It doesn't have to be

40:24 necessarily in the professional life or in, you know, sales related. It can be,

40:29 I learned how to play the guitar. I learned, uh, you know, I had a rep that, uh, I interviewed a

40:34 few months ago, uh, that told me that he was passionate about, uh, model cycle. And he,

40:41 he started assembling and disassembling motorcycles and he was just looking at YouTube and, you know,

40:47 learning how to do that. And that to me, it shows me that someone is able to learn and they're not

40:53 necessarily looking for, you know, a six months, a neighbor program. They can get their hands dirty

41:01 and quickly get up and running. And as a startup, that's very important for me. So that's, uh,

41:06 that's one thing I, I look for creativity and problem solving. I think, you know,

41:11 it, uh, a sales process is typically not linear, especially at an early stage. You,

41:17 there's a lot of things to figure out. It's not that you get a playbook that, uh, you know,

41:22 50 other reps have followed. And so, uh, yeah, I'm looking for someone that's, uh, that's, uh,

41:28 dynamic, that's, uh, that's creative that, uh, and so I asked them, you know, what was the most

41:34 creative way that you got in front of someone. It's typically also the, you know, the, if they

41:39 really did that, then they'll tell you a story that they're very passionate about. And it's,

41:44 it's kind of an opportunity to get someone out of his shell. I'm looking for someone who's, uh,

41:50 maybe a little more T-shaped. And so, uh, you know, if you've been a sales rep with a large company,

41:56 then you get marketing, giving you data sheets and all kinds of PDFs and you get an SE that

42:02 supports you on the technical front, et cetera. And so I'm, you know, I'm looking for someone again,

42:09 early stage company. If, uh, if you need a document and you don't have that, then you need

42:14 to create that document. And nowadays, honestly, with AI, it's very easy to also create that

42:19 document. So I'm looking for those reps that, uh, uh, you know, would not just sit around and,

42:25 you know, wait for other functions in the company to, you know, to support them. And so, you know,

42:32 if you ask a rep, uh, yeah, marketing didn't give me enough leads. And so I didn't have enough

42:38 pipeline or the, the SDR team didn't step up. And, uh, well, I mean, if the SDRs didn't step up,

42:46 then you probably didn't enable them well enough or you probably didn't give them enough direction.

42:53 Oh, you know what? Maybe the SDRs were shitty. So how did you create pipeline? Because ultimately

42:58 as a sales rep, you're, you're measured on your number. And so the only way to achieve that number

43:04 is, you know, to build pipeline. So it doesn't matter any excuse whether the, you know, the

43:11 product was shitty. The team that supported you weren't, uh, doing great job though. Focusing on

43:17 other territory is whatever it's, uh, ultimately it's, uh, you know, it's your responsibility. And

43:26 so, uh, that's, that's partially, by the way, that's also my philosophy around, uh, you know,

43:32 why I like to own sales and marketing. Um, cause then, you know, I can't complain to anyone that,

43:39 uh, you know, if we didn't hit the number or if we don't have enough pipeline, the bus stops with me.

43:44 And you know, I, if marketing is not doing a good job, then, you know, I manage marketing,

43:51 it's my responsibility to help them step up or replace them. Same thing for the SDR team,

43:57 same thing for the sales team. So I also think it's really important for the CRO down, both

44:02 marketing and sales, just to your point, there's one person accountable. There's no finger pointing,

44:07 which, which happens a lot between sales and marketing. Um, how, how did you, I would love

44:12 to hear how you got so proficient in both. Cause it seems like you have this tremendous

44:16 creative capability showing up at the trade shows, knowing what's going to work to

44:22 engage your potential prospects, but then also having really good, strong foundations and sales

44:29 and how to hire reps. How did you really get the well-rounded experience? I think going back to

44:37 maybe what I said about being T-shaped and being able to learn, I think that's, uh, that's probably,

44:43 you know, a strong, strong attributes for me. And so, uh, uh, you know, when I start, I started

44:50 my career as an engineer and then I figure out, uh, I guess if I'm going to say the late nineties,

44:56 then that's gonna disclose my age. But, uh, I got two job offers from Cisco. One is in the engineering

45:03 team and another one was in sales and marketing. And I figured that I enjoy talking to people more

45:08 than I enjoy sitting in front of my laptop. And I kind of made a transition to that. And, and then

45:14 I joined the public company where I was kind of the, uh, I was part of the strategy team and I,

45:23 and we're a very small team. And I figured that if, uh, you know, if I want to do something beyond

45:28 just building plans and Excel sheets, then, you know, I gotta step up and be the program manager

45:36 and the product manager and the sales guy. And so I started doing all of that. And so, um,

45:44 so again, I think throughout my career, I, especially in, uh, well, I think even to this day,

45:50 I've never had a, you know, a job where I was replacing someone and they were like, okay,

45:57 here's the awesome responsibilities and here's the, uh, you know, a playbook that, uh, the person

46:05 before you, um, uh, you know, use them. So, so I think that was part of that. And then when I,

46:12 um, uh, you know, when I joined my first startup, I, uh, uh, you know, there was no sales, no

46:21 marketing. So I started doing, uh, you know, sales and, uh, and then I, I started building my marketing

46:28 team and, uh, I, you know, I'm very hands-on and I'm very involved in the details. And so it was,

46:35 uh, I think I was partially looking at that, uh, that marketing leader and what he was doing. And,

46:42 uh, and we're working pretty closely together. So I kind of figure out what's working and what's not.

46:47 And again, very quickly, I, I developed a theory that, uh, I've been in larger companies. So I've

46:53 seen, you know, kind of that finger pointing of, uh, you know, sales and marketing pointing figures

46:59 with each other and, uh, you know, marketing generating leads, sales is not following up on

47:04 that and those sort of things. And I, uh, uh, you know, I think it's, uh, as an early stage company,

47:11 one, you don't have the luxury of, uh, you know, dropping the ball. And, you know, one thing that

47:17 you have going for you is that, uh, everybody's, you know, kind of aiming for that same goal,

47:24 which is also why, you know, I, I never really believed in the philosophy of, oh, marketing owns

47:30 MQL or SQL and sales on, uh, you know, pipeline and revenue. And I, uh, every time I had a revenue

47:38 leader, I was, uh, sorry, a marketing leader, I was, uh, uh, you know, this is our target. This

47:44 is my number. This is also your number. I don't care if you're generating thousands of leads and

47:50 they don't convert. And I don't care if you're generating thousands of leads and, you know,

47:54 the SDR team is not following up on that. We're a small enough team that you need to work together

47:59 with them, you know, to ultimately achieve that number. If, uh, if you're achieving your goals,

48:06 then I'm not achieving mine. Then, you know, we're pretty much, uh, uh, you know, we, we didn't do

48:12 anything here. Uh, again, I think I just, I was very observant around what's working, what's not,

48:18 and observing that and learning that quickly. And, uh, you know, talking to other people in

48:24 the industry to figure out what's working for them. And, uh, yeah. And after doing that for,

48:31 I guess, almost 15 years, it's, uh, it kind of became a second nature. I think it's every,

48:39 it's every company that I've been with with the exception of one company where I, I initially

48:46 joined without owning marketing. And, uh, I think it took four months for us to figure out that it's

48:52 not working. I, I remember that, uh, you know, we wanted to change the messaging and we wanted to

48:59 change, uh, you know, the, the landing pages and stuff. And it was all a very long cycle. It was

49:06 also a marketing team that came from larger companies. And so, you know, there was an agency

49:12 and you needed to create a ticket. And, uh, and it like took almost two months for every change to

49:19 land. And, uh, it was, you know, it was driving me crazy. And, uh, and like I said, I mean,

49:26 I didn't have a choice. I needed to meet my members. And so I, I started, this was post-COVID

49:33 and I just started doing a bunch of, uh, events that I, I would literally organize myself. I would

49:39 be, you know, anything from inviting people to finding the venue, to ordering the food and,

49:47 and so on and so forth. Uh, and, uh, cause again, nobody cares ultimately that the marketing team

49:54 doesn't step up. And so I think after like four months, we, we figured out that, uh, that it's

50:01 not working and I, uh, I took over the marketing team and, uh, you know, essentially hired new

50:07 people, but, uh, um, so yeah, that's, that's kind of how I came about to manage your both sales and

50:15 marketing. And, uh, um, and I think that's, that's been a key to the success that I had at, uh,

50:24 almost any company that I've been with. I love it. Well, I appreciate the relentless pursuit to

50:33 win, hit the number. It doesn't matter if it's my job or not, my job is to hit the number. So I'm

50:38 going to figure out the best way to do that. And I think as you were alluding to earlier,

50:43 if there are any reps that want to reach out, work with you, I know the team is growing. I know the

50:49 team is scaling. I'm sure that's going to be part of what you're looking for in anyone to join your

50:54 team. Um, so listen to this podcast and, uh, and then, uh, you know, make sure you have that in

51:03 your toolbox when, uh, when, when you're reaching out and when we're talking, but, uh, yeah, we are,

51:09 we are going on all fronts, uh, you know, sales, marketing, customer success. And, uh, um, so, you

51:18 know, I'm always looking for good people. Well, Shannon, thank you so much for everything you

51:26 shared today. I really appreciate the concept of the half-life of every single channel. I think a

51:30 lot of people have ingrained in their heads that, Hey, certain channels are evergreen. As long as you

51:35 keep pumping resources into them, they're going to keep producing pipeline, but you really need

51:40 to be evaluating those every single step of the way. And the one thing on the human connection side,

51:46 have some fun, stand out, be human, find a way to connect by a Lego shirt. Maybe not. Maybe the

51:52 half-life is already over on that one, but do something. If you can get the show floor to

51:56 approve puppies, it sounds like that might work. Um, but I really liked the approach there too.

52:02 And then of course bridging sales and marketing, getting them aligned with one goal and all rowing

52:08 in the same direction to achieve the company's mission. I think you, you summarize that well,

52:14 and I, you know, I'll leave you with maybe one thought that, uh, as the kind of, as you,

52:19 you're summarizing that I thought about is, uh, the lifespan of, you know, what's working is

52:27 significantly shorter. I think, uh, you know, uh, industries are changing more frequently than,

52:33 than ever before. And so again, if previously I did, I don't know, webinars on LinkedIn,

52:40 and for about three years, it worked very well. I think nowadays it's, um, you know,

52:46 whatever's working might not work in 12 months, which is, which is why you constantly need to

52:54 experiment with new things and never, uh, settle for the start of school. And so, uh, so that's,

53:00 that's kind of my philosophy. That's, uh, probably another, you know, uh, value that I care with me

53:06 everywhere is, uh, is I, I constantly need to figure out what's, uh, you know, what's working.

53:14 And if I find something that's working and giving me, you know, six, 12 months edge over, um, over

53:21 my compared to us, then, you know, that's my key to success. And if I'm able to do that in a

53:27 sustainable way, uh, you know, over time, then, um, then again, that's, that's, that's the growth

53:34 engine that, uh, uh, that we're looking for. So yeah, I don't anticipate that velocity to slow down

53:43 one bit. So Johnny, thank you again for being on the podcast. Can't wait to see what you and

53:51 open observed do next. And can't wait for our audience to pull all these insights out as well.

53:58 Maybe puppies. That's, uh, that's next. Uh, but thanks for having me. This was fun. And

54:04 you know, I think we covered a lot of grounds and, uh, yeah, I appreciate, uh, you having me.

54:13 [BLANK_AUDIO]