--- title: "90% of Reps Don't Prep: The LEGO Booth Playbook" episode: 137 podcast: "The LeanScale Podcast" publisher: "LeanScale" guest: "Shani Shoham" guest_title: "Chief Revenue Officer, OpenObserve" date_published: 2026-10-12 date_modified: 2026-10-21 duration: 00:54:13 word_count: 8646 topics: ["demand-generation", "sales-leadership", "gtm-strategy", "brand-positioning", "ai-in-gtm"] canonical_url: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/shani-shoham-openobserve-90-percent-of-reps-dont-prep/ source: "LeanScale Knowledge Hub — https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge" license: "Free to quote and cite with attribution to The LeanScale Podcast." --- # 90% of Reps Don't Prep: The LEGO Booth Playbook _Shani Shoham on why every GTM channel has a half-life, running eight to ten experiments at once, conference booths people remember years later, an AI-run website migration with zero traffic drop, what 90% of sales candidates skip, and why the CRO should own sales and marketing_ **Episode 137 · The LeanScale Podcast** Shani Shoham, Chief Revenue Officer, OpenObserve · Hosted by Anthony Enrico Published October 12, 2026 · Updated October 21, 2026 · 00:54:13 Canonical: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/shani-shoham-openobserve-90-percent-of-reps-dont-prep/ **Topics:** Demand Generation · Sales Leadership · GTM Strategy · Brand & Positioning · AI in GTM ## Executive summary Shani Shoham is the Chief Revenue Officer at OpenObserve, the open-source observability platform. He has spent about 15 years building go-to-market for developer and infrastructure companies: he scaled WekaIO from $1M to $30M in ARR, was President and CRO at Testim through its acquisition by Tricentis, and founded 21 Labs, which Perforce acquired. He started as an engineer, owns both sales and marketing, still prospects every week, and has interviewed more than 500 sales reps in the last several months. His central argument in this conversation with Anthony Enrico is that the lifespan of whatever is working in go-to-market is shorter than it has ever been. Anthony opens with the pattern: outbound SDR teams worked, then LinkedIn webinars pulled 1,500 people a session, then private dinners after COVID, and many of those no longer work. Shani's diagnosis is fatigue. Prospects pay attention to a new channel, everyone piles in, and it stops working. His answer is to never rely on one channel. At any moment he runs eight to ten experiments, expecting most to fail and one or two to succeed, and draws ideas from about 15 newsletters a day and from watching what draws people in at conferences. The only things he will call durable are content, whose form has shifted from blog posts to video to AEO, and human connection, which he calls EQ and sees as the one thing AI can't replace. Events are where that human side shows. Shani describes the LEGO-themed booth he built for a small company after COVID: an artist drew visitors as LEGO figures, a vendor printed a custom figure to collect the next day, and the team wore matching shirts. Four years later, someone at the same conference recognized him as the LEGO guy. Later booths used a summer-vacation theme in the European winter with an LED backwall, and 3D-printed mini-me figures for high-value prospects, one of which he later saw on an analyst's desk during a call. The principle is to design for how a cold, lonely conference feels and make it warm. He also expects booth ideas to wear out, having seen other companies copy the LEGO theme within a year. On AI, his clearest win was a website redesign. A designer set the homepage direction, and AI did the rest: animations, the remaining pages from the new template, and SEO and AEO edits benchmarked against competitors. It took about as long as the old way, but the migration had zero impact on rankings and traffic, with none of the usual dip and recovery. He uses AI daily to prepare for meetings from his calendar, CRM, LinkedIn and the web, which is why he is surprised that more than 90% of the 500-plus sales reps he has interviewed don't do basic research. He blames low switching costs and the assumption that preparation can wait for later rounds. The second half is about hiring and ownership. Shani wants reps to ask why the company wins and loses, and he looks for people who can learn, show creativity in getting in front of buyers, and act T-shaped by making the asset or building the pipeline themselves rather than blaming marketing or the SDRs. Anthony adds that he scans resumes for at least one three-to-four-year run. Shani applies the same logic to himself: the CRO should own sales and marketing against one number so there is no finger-pointing. The one time he joined without marketing, agency tickets took about two months per change, he ran events himself to hit his number, and he took over marketing after four months. ## Key takeaways 1. **Every channel works until it doesn't, because of fatigue** — Outbound SDR teams, LinkedIn webinars that pulled 1,500 people a session, and private dinners after COVID all worked for a while. Shani's explanation is fatigue: prospects pay attention to a new channel, everyone else moves onto it, and it stops working. He now feels overwhelmed by the number of event invitations he receives. _Why it matters:_ A channel's past performance says little about the next year. Plan for each one to decay and keep the next one in testing before the current one fades. _For:_ Marketing Leaders, Revenue Executives, Founders 2. **Run eight to ten experiments at once and expect most to fail** — Depending on team capacity, Shani runs about eight to ten experiments at any moment, knowing the majority will fail and one or two will work. A recent one was re-evaluating intent-data platforms on the theory that things had changed since the early days of 6sense. It failed too. _Why it matters:_ Treat channel planning as a portfolio rather than a set of fixed bets. Failure is the expected outcome of most experiments, not a sign the approach is wrong. _For:_ Marketing Leaders, Revenue Executives, Founders 3. **Get experiment ideas from reading and from watching people** — Shani reads about 15 newsletters a day, during workouts and between meetings. He has also made a habit of watching conference floors: which booths draw people, and how people react to different things. Those observations become the next experiment. _Why it matters:_ Experiment ideas need a steady input. Reserve time for outside reading and direct observation rather than waiting for ideas to appear. _For:_ Marketing Leaders, Revenue Executives 4. **Content and human connection are the only durable pillars** — Asked whether any channel is evergreen, Shani names two. Content has always mattered for marketing and awareness, though its form moved from blog posts to video and user-generated content and now to AEO. Human connection, through conferences, private events and lunch-and-learns, has lasted everywhere except briefly during COVID. _Why it matters:_ Invest in both as constants while the specific formats and venues rotate underneath them. _For:_ Marketing Leaders, Founders, Revenue Executives 5. **EQ is the skill AI can't replace** — Shani cites a book claiming buyers decide in the first two or three minutes whether to buy and spend the rest of the process justifying it, largely on whether they like and trust the seller. Reading body language and remembering personal details are part of that. Anthony adds that trust and accountability need a person on each side, even if agents end up transacting with each other. _Why it matters:_ Shani expects emotional intelligence to be among the most important skills for sales reps over the next couple of years. Hire and coach for it. _For:_ Sales Leaders, Revenue Executives 6. **Copy-pasted AI outreach is a commodity; real personalization stands out** — Shani gave an SDR candidate a simple assignment: pick two prospects and write a three-step sequence. The candidate pasted output from ChatGPT, icons and long dashes included. Shani told him that if he wanted AI to do it, he would buy an AI SDR. He receives 40 to 50 emails a day that open the same way, and the one he remembers referenced something he had said on a podcast. _Why it matters:_ Because everyone is flooded with AI-generated emails, the diligence to find a detail most SDRs would miss is now what makes outreach work. _For:_ Sales Leaders, Marketing Leaders 7. **Design the booth around how a conference feels** — Most tech booths are purple, dark or blue, with staff in matching logo shirts, and conferences are cold experiences full of strangers. Shani asked what gives people a warm feeling (dogs, kids, LEGO) and built a LEGO-themed booth with an artist drawing visitors as LEGO figures and a vendor printing custom figures to pick up the next day. Four years later, someone at the same conference remembered him as the LEGO guy. _Why it matters:_ A memorable experience gives people a reason to stop and a natural conversation starter, but it still needs a hook for post-event follow-up, or the email goes into the void along with the ROI. _For:_ Marketing Leaders, Founders 8. **Booth ideas have a half-life too** — About a year after the LEGO booth, Shani saw other companies using LEGO themes and similar giveaways. Later he ran a summer-vacation theme at a European conference in mid-winter, with straw hats, flip-flops and an LED backwall, and printed 3D mini-me figures of high-value prospects to collect the next day. A month before recording he saw one on an analyst's desk during a call. _Why it matters:_ The channel-fatigue rule applies to creative ideas: plan a few steps ahead. Shani's next wish is to bring dogs to a booth if the organizers allow it. _For:_ Marketing Leaders 9. **Early-stage companies can afford to have fun with the brand** — Anthony asks how Shani dropped the fear of having fun at events. Shani says it is part of why he likes early-stage companies: at a large company he would need approval from legal, marketing and others, while at an early stage you are not afraid to experiment or change your brand. _Why it matters:_ He argues fun is an asset now that so much buyer interaction runs through AI and feels cold. _For:_ Marketing Leaders, Founders 10. **AI ran a website migration with zero traffic drop** — Shani hired a designer for the homepage direction, then used AI for everything else: animations, redesigning the remaining pages from the new template, and SEO and AEO changes based on competitors' sites. It took roughly the same time as the old process but the outcome was better. Instead of the usual dip and slow recovery in rankings and traffic, there was no impact. _Why it matters:_ The gain from AI here was quality and lower risk rather than speed. Use people for creative direction and AI for systematic execution across many pages. _For:_ Marketing Leaders, Founders 11. **Over 90% of sales candidates skip basic research** — Shani uses AI every day to prepare for meetings from his calendar, CRM, LinkedIn and the web. Yet of more than 500 sales reps he has interviewed in six to eight months, over 90% didn't do basic research beyond the homepage hero section. Anthony points out that a one-page brief is a single prompt away. Shani's logic: a rep who won't prepare for one or two interviews a week won't prepare for the meetings on their calendar every day. _Why it matters:_ Interview preparation is a direct preview of how a rep will treat prospect meetings, and AI has removed any excuse for skipping it. _For:_ Sales Leaders, Revenue Executives 12. **Ask why the company wins and loses** — Shani rarely hears candidates ask why the company wins and why it loses, which tells a rep whether deals are lost to product, competitiveness or pricing. Questions like how the go-to-market organization is set up can be answered from LinkedIn. A better version uses that research: you added this person to marketing, is that channel producing enough inbound? _Why it matters:_ With only two or three questions to ask, candidates (and reps in discovery) should ask the ones that change their decision. _For:_ Sales Leaders 13. **Look for at least one three-to-four-year run** — Anthony scans resumes for at least one stint of three to four years, long enough to work through challenges and see whether major decisions paid off. Shani agrees, noting that sales tenure is shorter than in other functions. He questions candidates who claim 270% of quota and left a few months later because of a restructure: if several reps were hitting quota, the company would not have restructured. _Why it matters:_ About one in four reps Shani interviews has three short stints in a row. Some will still get $300K on-target offers, and he expects many to struggle. _For:_ Sales Leaders, Revenue Executives 14. **Hire reps who learn fast, get creative and own their pipeline** — Shani asks candidates for something new they learned (one taught himself motorcycle repair from YouTube) and for the most creative way they got in front of a buyer. He wants T-shaped reps who create a missing document themselves, which AI makes easy, rather than waiting on other functions. Blaming marketing or SDRs for thin pipeline doesn't work for him: a rep is measured on the number, so building pipeline is the rep's job. _Why it matters:_ At an early stage there is no playbook followed by 50 reps before you. Screen for learning speed, problem solving and ownership over polish from large-company support structures. _For:_ Sales Leaders, Founders 15. **The CRO should own sales and marketing against one number** — Shani has never believed marketing should own MQLs while sales owns pipeline and revenue. He tells marketing leaders that his number is their number and that thousands of leads that don't convert don't count. The one time he joined without owning marketing, every change went through an agency ticket and took about two months, so he organized events himself, down to the venue and food, and took over marketing after four months. _Why it matters:_ One accountable owner removes the finger-pointing between sales and marketing. Shani credits owning both for his success at almost every company he has worked with. _For:_ Revenue Executives, Founders, Marketing Leaders ## Frameworks ### Every Channel Works Until It Doesn't (01:38) **Definition:** Each go-to-market channel decays through fatigue: it works while it is new, everyone adopts it, and prospects stop paying attention. The time a channel stays effective is getting shorter. Shani traces the cycle through outbound SDR teams, LinkedIn webinars that replaced ON24 and Zoom webinars, and in-person dinners after COVID. LinkedIn webinars once worked for him for about three years. Now he expects whatever works to stop within about 12 months, so the goal is to keep finding a six-to-twelve-month edge over competitors and to do it repeatedly. ### Eight to Ten Experiments at a Time (02:56) **Definition:** Run a standing portfolio of eight to ten go-to-market experiments sized to team capacity, expecting most to fail and one or two to succeed. Ideas come from about 15 daily newsletters and from watching people at conferences. Failure is normal: a recent re-evaluation of intent-data platforms failed. The portfolio is how Shani stays ahead of channel decay instead of reacting to it. ### Two Durable Pillars: Content and Human Connection (05:23) **Definition:** The only go-to-market investments Shani considers lasting are content and human connection. Their formats change, but the pillars remain. Content moved from blog posts to video and user-generated content and now to AEO. Human connection runs through conferences, private events and lunch-and-learns, and only paused during COVID. He links the second pillar to EQ, the part of selling he expects AI not to replace. ### Design the Booth for a Warm Feeling (13:06) **Definition:** Start from how attendees feel at a conference (cold, alone, approached by strangers) and design a booth experience that feels warm and different, with something they take home and a hook for follow-up. Shani's examples are a LEGO-themed booth with an artist and custom printed figures, a summer-vacation theme in a European winter with an LED backwall, and 3D-printed mini-me figures for high-value prospects. The theme starts conversations, and the next-day pickup brings people back. He expects each idea to wear out as others copy it, so he plans the next one in advance. ### Human Direction, AI Execution for a Site Migration (22:42) **Definition:** Use a designer to set the homepage direction, then use AI to build animations, extend the template to every other page, and make SEO and AEO edits against competitor sites before migrating. The process took about the same time as a traditional redesign, but rankings and traffic showed none of the usual post-migration dip. Shani gives it as his clearest example of AI fully completing a process he would have handled very differently a few years ago. ### Why Do We Win, Why Do We Lose? (32:39) **Definition:** The question Shani wants sales candidates to ask: it shows whether deals are lost to product, competitiveness or pricing, which decides whether the job is winnable. Candidates usually spend their few questions on things they could look up, such as the shape of the go-to-market team on LinkedIn. Shani interviewed for jobs by picturing himself in the role and working out what he needed to succeed and to decide. Questions built on prior research are the ones that stand out. ### Learn, Create, Own: What Shani Hires For (40:06) **Definition:** Beyond salesmanship, hire reps who can learn quickly, who solve problems creatively, and who are T-shaped enough to create missing assets and build their own pipeline without blaming other teams. His interview questions: what is something new you learned, and what is the most creative way you got in front of someone. He listens for passion in the story. He rejects excuses about marketing leads or SDR support because a rep is measured on the number and the only way to hit it is to build pipeline. ### One Number, One Owner (43:26) **Definition:** The CRO owns both sales and marketing, and every team shares one revenue number instead of marketing owning MQLs and sales owning pipeline. Shani tells marketing leaders their number is his number and leads that don't convert don't count. Owning both means no one to blame when pipeline is short: he helps the team improve or replaces people. The one time he didn't own marketing, slow agency cycles pushed him to run events himself until he took marketing over four months in. ## Quotes _Speakers inferred from an undiarized transcript — verify before attributing._ > "I think it's fatigue. Prospects pay attention to one channel, then everybody starts using that channel, and that's the reason that it stops working." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (01:38) > "Nowadays, I feel overwhelmed with the amount of events that I get invited to. And so, yeah, I think every channel works until it doesn't." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (02:20) > "At every moment, I run about eight to 10 experiments, and I know that majority of them will fail, but one or two of those experiments will be successful." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (03:38) > "One thing that AI is not going to be able to replace is that human connection, and I call that EQ." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (07:15) > "Listen, if I wanted AI to do that, then I would just buy an AI SDR." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (11:09) > "That's the level of diligence that I think people need to do nowadays in order to stand out. Because we're all getting bombarded with AI-generated emails." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (12:02) > "I think it's about creating a memorable experience. It's about creating something that would feel different." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (15:38) > "If you're just like anybody, then it's the same thing. You'll send an email, it will go to the void, and there goes your ROI on the conference." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (20:34) > "Having fun is not necessarily bad, especially nowadays where everybody goes to AI and it's like a very cold experience." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (21:44) > "You typically see those graphs where there's a drop and then slowly it starts getting back up. And I think in our case there was literally zero impact." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (24:41) > "As a sales rep, if you're not preparing for the one, two interviews that you have in a given week, you're definitely not going to prepare for the meetings that you have on your calendar every day." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (26:27) > "I'm really surprised to hear that too, because you're essentially a prompt away." > > — Anthony Enrico, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (26:53) > "I've probably interviewed over 500 sales reps over the last six, seven, eight months. And I would say over 90% of them don't even do that basic research." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (28:36) > "A good question for a sales rep, which I rarely get asked, is why do we win, why do we lose?" > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (32:39) > "Did you have one where you had a three to four-year run at a company? Just one, just give me one, where you really dug your heels in and made a commitment somewhere." > > — Anthony Enrico, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (34:57) > "Ultimately as a sales rep, you're measured on your number. And so the only way to achieve that number is to build pipeline." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (42:58) > "If we didn't hit the number or if we don't have enough pipeline, the buck stops with me." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (43:39) > "This is our target. This is my number. This is also your number. I don't care if you're generating thousands of leads and they don't convert." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (47:38) > "Whatever's working might not work in 12 months, which is why you constantly need to experiment with new things and never settle for the status quo." > > — Shani Shoham, The LeanScale Podcast Ep. 137 (52:46) ## Practical advice by role ### Marketing Leaders - Assume every channel will fatigue. Keep eight to ten experiments running, sized to team capacity, and expect only one or two to work. - Feed the experiment pipeline deliberately: read widely every day and watch what draws people at conferences. - Keep content and human connection as standing investments while the formats under them (blog, video, AEO; conferences, dinners, lunch-and-learns) rotate. - Design booths around how attendees feel, not around your brand colors. Give people something to take home or collect the next day, and a reason to follow up. - Plan the next booth idea before the current one gets copied. - For a site redesign, set creative direction with a designer and use AI to extend the template, build animations, and make SEO and AEO edits before migrating. ### Sales Leaders - Give SDR candidates a small real assignment, such as two prospects and a three-step sequence, and look for personalization a typical SDR would miss. - Treat interview preparation as a preview of how a candidate will prepare for prospect meetings. - Ask candidates what they recently learned and the most creative way they got in front of a buyer, and listen for genuine passion in the story. - Probe short stints and big quota claims: if a rep hit 270% and still left after a restructure, ask what that says about the rest of the team. - Coach reps on EQ: noticing body language, remembering personal details, and building trust early, since buyers often decide in the first few minutes. - Expect early-stage reps to build their own pipeline and create missing assets themselves rather than waiting on marketing or SDRs. ### Revenue Executives - Put sales and marketing under one owner with one revenue number so there is no finger-pointing over lead quality or follow-up. - Tell the marketing leader their number is the revenue number; lead volume that doesn't convert doesn't count. - If marketing changes take months through agencies and tickets, step in and run the activities directly until the structure is fixed. - Use AI to prepare for every meeting from your calendar, CRM, LinkedIn and the web, and expect the same of your team. ### Founders - Use early-stage freedom to experiment with the brand and with events; large-company approval chains are what kill the fun ideas. - Hire reps who have no playbook to follow and don't need one: fast learners, creative problem solvers, T-shaped. - Look for at least one three-to-four-year stint on a resume as evidence a candidate has seen decisions play out. - Expect your current growth channel to stop working within about a year and budget for the next experiments now. ## AI takeaways **Thesis:** AI earns its place in execution work, such as a full website migration and daily meeting preparation, while the parts of go-to-market that win deals (EQ, trust, genuinely personal outreach and memorable in-person experiences) become more valuable because AI makes everything else feel generic. - **** — - **** — - **** — - **** — - **** — **Agent & automation ideas** - A daily meeting-prep agent that reads the calendar and assembles a brief from CRM notes, LinkedIn and the web for each attendee. - A site-migration agent that extends a new homepage design across every page and proposes SEO and AEO edits against competitor pages. - An outreach-research agent that finds a specific detail from a prospect's podcast, video or post for the first line of a sequence, with the rep writing the message. - An experiment-tracker agent that logs each GTM experiment, its cost and its pipeline result, and flags when a working channel starts to decay. ## Operations takeaways ### Revenue operations - **.** - **.** - **.** - **.** ### Pipeline & marketing ops - **.** - **.** - **.** - **.** - **.** ## Metrics mentioned | Value | Metric | Context | | --- | --- | --- | | 8–10 | Concurrent GTM experiments | How many experiments Shani runs at any moment, expecting one or two to succeed. | | About 15 | Newsletters read per day | Shani's daily source of ideas for new experiments. | | 1,500 people per webinar | LinkedIn webinar attendance at its peak | Anthony's example of a channel that worked before it fatigued. | | 40–50 a day | Templated AI emails in Shani's inbox | Emails that open with the same structure; the one he remembers referenced something he said on a podcast. | | 4 years | LEGO booth recall | How long after the LEGO-themed booth someone at the same conference still recognized Shani as the LEGO guy. | | Zero | Website migration traffic impact | No ranking or traffic drop after the AI-assisted redesign and migration, versus the usual dip and recovery. | | 500+ in six to eight months | Sales reps interviewed | Shani's interview volume while OpenObserve scales, currently two or three a day. | | Over 90% | Candidates who skip basic research | Share of the 500-plus reps Shani interviewed who didn't research the company beyond the homepage. | | About 1 in 4 | Reps with three short stints in a row | Shani's estimate of interviewees whose last three companies were all short stints. | | Almost two months per change | Time to change marketing assets via agency | At the one company where Shani joined without owning marketing; he took over marketing after about four months. | | About 12 months | Expected life of a working channel | Shani's view of how long whatever is working now will last, versus about three years for LinkedIn webinars previously. | | $1M to $30M | WekaIO ARR growth | From the episode's show notes: the growth Shani led at WekaIO before Testim and 21 Labs. | ## Entities mentioned - **OpenObserve** (company) — Shani's employer, where he is Chief Revenue Officer and owns sales and marketing. He describes the company as scaling very fast and hiring across sales, marketing and customer success, which is why he interviews two or three reps a day. Its website was recently redesigned and migrated with AI and saw no traffic or ranking drop. · https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/company/openobserve/ - **Cisco** (company) — Where Shani's move from engineering began: in the late 1990s he received two offers from Cisco, one in engineering and one in sales and marketing, and chose the latter because he enjoyed talking to people more than sitting in front of a laptop. · https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/company/cisco/ - **Shani Shoham** (person, guest) — CRO at OpenObserve; scaled WekaIO from $1M to $30M ARR, President and CRO at Testim through its Tricentis acquisition, founder of 21 Labs (acquired by Perforce). · https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/guest/shani-shoham/ - **Anthony Enrico** (person, host) — Co-founder of LeanScale and host of The LeanScale Podcast. · https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/guest/anthony-enrico/ - **LinkedIn** (tool, Social Platform) — Anthony's example of a channel that fatigued: LinkedIn webinars once pulled about 1,500 people per session, until most companies moved their webinars there. Shani says they worked well for him for about three years. He also suggests candidates use LinkedIn to map a company's go-to-market team before an interview instead of asking about it. - **ON24** (tool, Webinar Platform) — Named as one of the webinar platforms companies moved away from when LinkedIn webinars became the new channel. - **Zoom** (tool, Video Conferencing) — Zoom webinars, alongside ON24, were what companies left behind when they shifted webinars to LinkedIn. - **6sense** (tool, ABM & Intent) — Shani's reference point for intent-data platforms: he re-evaluated buying one on the theory that things had changed since the early days of 6sense, and the experiment failed. - **ChatGPT** (tool, AI Assistant) — An SDR candidate completed Shani's outreach assignment by pasting output from ChatGPT, icons and long dashes included, which led Shani to say he would just buy an AI SDR. ## FAQ **Q: Why do go-to-market channels stop working?** A: According to Shani Shoham, CRO at OpenObserve, the cause is fatigue. A new channel works because prospects are paying attention to it; then every company adopts it and it stops working. He traces the pattern through outbound SDR teams, LinkedIn webinars that once drew 1,500 people a session, and private dinners after COVID. LinkedIn webinars once worked for him for about three years, but he now expects whatever is working to stop within about 12 months, so he keeps eight to ten experiments running at any time, expecting most to fail and one or two to succeed. **Q: Are any B2B marketing channels evergreen?** A: Shani Shoham names two pillars that have lasted through every channel shift: content and human connection. Content has always mattered for marketing and awareness, though its form has moved from blog posts to video and user-generated content and now to AEO. Human connection, through conferences, private events and lunch-and-learns, has lasted everywhere except briefly during COVID. He ties it to EQ, which he sees as the one part of selling AI won't replace. **Q: How do you make a conference booth stand out?** A: Shani Shoham designs booths around how attendees feel. Conferences are cold experiences full of strangers, and most tech booths are purple, dark or blue with staff in matching logo shirts. He asks what gives people a warm feeling, such as dogs, kids or LEGO. One booth had a LEGO theme, an artist drawing visitors as LEGO figures and custom printed figures to collect the next day; someone recognized him from it four years later. Others used a summer-vacation theme in a European winter with an LED backwall, and 3D-printed mini-me figures for high-value prospects. He adds that the booth still needs a hook for follow-up, and that ideas wear out as competitors copy them. **Q: How can AI help with a website migration without losing traffic?** A: In Shani Shoham's redesign at OpenObserve, a designer set the homepage direction and AI handled the rest: building animations, redesigning the remaining pages from the new template, and making SEO and AEO changes based on competitors' sites. The process took roughly as long as a traditional redesign, but the result was better. Instead of the usual drop in rankings and traffic followed by a slow recovery, the migration had no measurable impact. **Q: What should sales candidates do to prepare for an interview?** A: Do basic research that goes beyond the homepage. Shani Shoham has interviewed more than 500 sales reps in six to eight months and says over 90% didn't. With AI, a one-page brief on the company, its competitors and its go-to-market is a prompt away, and referencing something the interviewer said on a podcast makes a strong first impression. He also wants candidates to ask why the company wins and why it loses, rather than questions they could answer from LinkedIn. His reasoning: a rep who won't prepare for one or two interviews a week won't prepare for daily prospect meetings. **Q: What does Shani Shoham look for when hiring sales reps?** A: Beyond core salesmanship, he looks for people who can learn quickly, asking for something new they learned in any part of life; for creativity, asking for the most creative way they got in front of a buyer; and for T-shaped reps who create missing documents themselves and build their own pipeline instead of blaming marketing or SDRs. He questions resumes with several short stints in a row, which he sees in about one in four candidates, and probes large quota claims followed by a quick exit after a restructure. **Q: Should the CRO own both sales and marketing?** A: Shani Shoham argues yes, so there is one accountable owner and no finger-pointing over lead quality or follow-up. He does not believe in marketing owning MQLs while sales owns pipeline and revenue; he tells marketing leaders that his revenue number is also theirs and that leads that don't convert don't count. The one time he joined a company without owning marketing, every change went through an agency and took almost two months, so he ran events himself and took over marketing after four months. He credits owning both functions for his success at almost every company he has worked with. ## Timeline - **00:00** — Intro: Shani Shoham, CRO at OpenObserve - **01:16** — Why every channel works until it doesn't - **04:46** — Is anything evergreen? Content and human connection - **07:07** — EQ is the thing AI can't replace - **12:24** — Events, and the LEGO booth people still remember four years later - **18:31** — Booth ideas have a half-life too, and the 3D mini-me - **22:00** — Where AI belongs in GTM: the zero-drop website migration - **25:25** — 500 reps interviewed, 90% didn't do basic research - **32:33** — The question reps should ask: why do we win, why do we lose? - **33:57** — Tenure, short stints and what a 270% claim hides - **39:56** — What Shani hires for: learning, creativity, ownership - **44:08** — How he got fluent in both sales and marketing - **51:18** — Wrap: the lifespan of what works is shrinking ## Related episodes - **Ep. 120: AI Made Outreach Worthless. Events Are What's Left** (Alex Reynolds (Vendelux)) — The same thesis from the events side: AI has flooded outreach, so in-person events and human connection carry more pipeline, which is where Shani's booth playbook applies. - **Ep. 4: The One and Only Way to Align Sales and Marketing** (Cameron Legge (LeanScale)) — A RevOps view of the sales-marketing alignment Shani solves by owning both functions against one number. · https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/cameron-legge-align-sales-marketing/ - **Ep. 69: Inside the Mind of a Modern CRO** (Brett Kelly (Inovonics)) — Another CRO on running a revenue organization, to compare with Shani's case for owning marketing as well as sales. · https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/brett-kelly-modern-cro/ - **Ep. 71: From $500M to $10B: The CRO Playbook for Constant Reinvention** (Alex Loktev (P2P.org)) — Constant reinvention as a CRO discipline, matching Shani's view that whatever works now will stop within a year. · https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/alex-loktev-cro-playbook-reinvention/ - **Ep. 76: Your Marketing Playbook Is Dead** (Leysan Zigangirova (Async)) — Why yesterday's marketing playbook stops working, the same channel-decay pattern Shani describes. · https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/leysan-zigangirova-marketing-playbook-dead/ - **Ep. 84: From Fortune 1 to 100 Person Startup: A CRO's Bet on Creative** (Gabby Stoller (Big Happy)) — A CRO betting on creative work to stand out, the same instinct behind Shani's LEGO and summer-vacation booths. · https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/gabby-stoller-cro-bet-on-creative/ - **Ep. 56: Your Website Isn't Built for AI** (Kevin White (Scrunch AI)) — Deeper coverage of AEO and how AI engines read a site, relevant to Shani's AI-assisted redesign with SEO and AEO edits. · https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/kevin-white-website-built-for-ai/ ## Full transcript _Machine-transcribed and not diarized; speaker attribution is inferred._ _Transcript only, as a separate file: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/shani-shoham-openobserve-90-percent-of-reps-dont-prep/transcript.md_ ### 00:00 — Intro: Shani Shoham, CRO at OpenObserve **[0:00]** A good question for a sales rep, which I rarely get asked is why do we win, why do we lose? **[0:06]** My guest today is Shani Shoham, Chief Revenue Officer at OpenObserve. **[0:11]** Shani has spent 15 years building go-to-market for developer and infrastructure companies. **[0:16]** When you started doing this in 2017, you could point in an SDR team, an outbound, **[0:21]** and it just worked. A lot of those just don't even work anymore. **[0:26]** Tickets fatigue, every channel works until it doesn't. **[0:29]** Let's talk about a place where you cannot fake it, is events. **[0:34]** You know, if you've been to conferences, especially tech conferences, you know, **[0:37]** everybody has the purple boot, the dark boot, the blue boot, they're wearing the company's t-shirt. **[0:43]** I also think it's really important for the CRO download marketing, it's just your point. **[0:47]** There's one person countable, there's no finger pointing. **[0:51]** You know, whatever is working might not work in 12 months, **[0:56]** which is why you constantly need to experiment with new things and never settle for the status quo. ### 01:16 — Why every channel works until it doesn't **[1:16]** When you started doing this in 2017, you could point in an SDR team, an outbound, **[1:21]** and it just worked. Then LinkedIn webinars were working, pulling in 1,500 people per webinar. **[1:27]** Private dinners after COVID, a lot of those just don't even work anymore. **[1:32]** What do you think is actually going on underneath that pattern? **[1:38]** I think it's fatigue. I think it's, you know, prospect pay attention to one channel, **[1:44]** then, you know, everybody starts using that channel and, you know, and that's the reason **[1:51]** that it stops working. You know, I think LinkedIn webinars is something that was relatively new, **[1:58]** and so that's why it worked. And then most companies started moving from, I don't know, **[2:04]** 124 and Zoom webinars to doing LinkedIn, and that's kind of why it stopped working. **[2:12]** The same thing around COVID, you know, everybody was looking to meet others in person and going **[2:20]** back to regular life, and so it worked for a while. And then, you know, nowadays, I feel overwhelmed **[2:27]** with the amount of events that I get invited to. And so, yeah, I think every channel works until **[2:37]** it doesn't. Are there any trends or signs that you start to see to get ahead of the change or **[2:46]** start leveraging the latest channel? As you're planning out your year, how do you tend to think **[2:50]** about which channels to double down on or to start to pull back on? It's a good question, **[2:56]** I think, and I'll also that maybe a little bit differently. So, at any point, I'll probably, **[3:05]** you know, one, depending on the capacity of the team, I'll probably one, not necessarily, **[3:12]** you know, in parallel, but eight to 10 experiments. I just, you know, I just think back on an **[3:19]** experiment that I went with another company that we came last week. A month ago, we were looking **[3:25]** at buying 10 platforms, and I was pretty sure that, you know, since the days of six cents and **[3:33]** bumboa, things have changed. And so I was like, you know, let's reevaluate that. And again, **[3:38]** I think it's another experiment that failed. So again, at every moment, I run about, you know, **[3:44]** eight to 10 experiments, and I know that majority of them will fail, but one or two of those **[3:50]** experiments will be successful. The way that I, you know, that I get inspired around those **[3:55]** experiments is I'm constantly reading, probably getting like 15 newsletters every day. And I, **[4:03]** you know, while I walk out, I try to read them and between meetings, et cetera. And so that's one **[4:09]** area of inspiration for me. And then the other thing is just observing people. I know we're **[4:15]** going to talk later about conferences. I've been doing conferences for many years, and **[4:20]** it kind of became a habit for me, you know, to observe, you know, which booths are working **[4:27]** better, how people react to certain things. And, and that's kind of what inspires me to say, oh, **[4:34]** you know, the next conference, we should do that. I mean, that's kind of how I try to figure out **[4:40]** what's, you know, what's working and what's not. It's just for experimentation. ### 04:46 — Is anything evergreen? Content and human connection **[4:46]** Alongside of the experiments, are there any channels in your opinion that are foundational, **[4:52]** they're always going to work as long as you put some investment behind them, or is everything fair **[4:59]** game to have this half life? You're putting me on the spot here. And I, you know, it's a podcast, **[5:08]** and so it's going to be there for a while. And I can say that something will forever work. And **[5:14]** someone's going to pull that podcast in five, 10 years and say it was wrong. But I, you know, **[5:23]** I think content, so again, I'll look back at history, and it doesn't necessarily mean that **[5:29]** what worked is going to work forever. But I think content has always been a significant pillar in **[5:38]** terms of, you know, especially in terms of marketing and awareness. The type of content **[5:48]** might have changed, I think, you know, 10 years ago, it was a lot of blog posts, you know, then it **[5:57]** became video and user generated content. And now it's more AEO, but I think content is definitely **[6:06]** in some shape or form has been around forever. And I also, you know, I think maybe a little bit **[6:13]** with the exception of during COVID, which was kind of a real time, the human connection has always **[6:20]** been there, you know, in some shape or form. And it's, you know, whether it was conferences, **[6:26]** whether it was private events, lunch and learns, and things like that. I mean, ultimately, we're **[6:34]** human, we're social, we, and so again, there might be some variances around that. But **[6:42]** I really hope that that's not going to change anytime soon. But yeah, those are probably two **[6:47]** pillars that I can think of. Yeah, I hope it doesn't change too. I mean, I enjoy the conveniences of **[6:53]** working from home. I have three young children when we're on the way. And I like being able to **[6:58]** do that. But I do still, especially if it's a big deal, it's a big hire, if it's something really **[7:02]** important, or you want to learn something, it's pretty tough to beat in person. Yeah, and you ### 07:07 — EQ is the thing AI can't replace **[7:07]** know, now that I know we're going to talk later about AI, and, you know, I don't know what I **[7:15]** look for in sales reps, but I think the, you know, one thing that AI is not going to be able to replace **[7:22]** is that human connection and that, you know, I call that EQ. And so, you know, being sensitive to **[7:32]** one's body language, being sensitive to what, you know, one is saying, you just said that you have **[7:38]** a baby on the way. I, you know, I'm definitely going to make a mental note of that. And, you know, **[7:45]** when we meet in a few months, I'm going to ask you about how's your new baby is doing. And I mean, **[7:51]** that's, you know, that's just a fundamental element of, you know, two people engaging in a **[7:59]** conversation. I recently read a book that says that people, you know, in the sales process, **[8:07]** prospect is making decision if he's going to buy from you in the first two or three minutes, and **[8:14]** then he's spending the rest of the time just justifying that decision. And so, and again, **[8:20]** I think a big part of that is, you know, do I like the other guy? Do I trust the other guy? And so, **[8:27]** you know, building trust and emotional intelligence is definitely a big part of that. So I, you know, **[8:35]** I think that sales reps and generally people that, you know, have that emotional intelligence and pay **[8:44]** attention to those cues. That's probably an important skill to own in, you know, in the next **[8:50]** couple of years. I think so too. And I do agree. Trust and accountability are things that can't **[8:58]** be owned in that equation between a person and an AI. It has to be another person on the other side **[9:04]** for that equation to actually hold true. And even if, even if you are executing certain things between **[9:12]** AI agents, let's say it does get there, which I don't think it will, especially for enterprise **[9:17]** or B2B, but let's assume even it does. You still need to tie who owns those agents and have trust **[9:24]** and accountability between the people who own the agents themselves. So I agree. I don't think it's **[9:29]** going anywhere. And I think in fact, it's going to make it even more important to stand out that way. **[9:37]** 100%. I can, you know, I interviewed an SDR a few months ago and I, you know, I really wanted to **[9:47]** give this guy a chance. And he was, you know, we had kind of, you know, a life journey that wasn't **[9:55]** traditional and, you know, a lot of hardships. And I, you know, I really wanted to give him a chance, **[10:01]** but, you know, his interview was so, so, and so I gave him an assignment, a simple assignment for, **[10:08]** you know, for an SDR, just give me, you know, find two prospects and create, you know, a **[10:15]** three-step sequence of how you target them. And I was really looking for, you know, whether he's **[10:23]** gonna find the prospect and, you know, personalize the outreach based on, I don't know, based on a **[10:32]** podcast, based on a video. He could have chosen any prospect. And so I, you know, if it was up to me, **[10:39]** I would probably find someone that's very outgoing and constantly, you know, blogging and, you know, **[10:45]** does podcasts and videos. And I would, you know, find something that he mentioned that 99% of the **[10:55]** SDRs would probably not even pay attention to. And instead he just went to Che GPT and he pretty much **[11:03]** gave me the, you know, he literally copy pasted from Che GPT. I could see all the icons and the **[11:09]** long dash and stuff like that. And I told him, listen, if I wanted AI to do that, then I would **[11:17]** just buy an AI SDR. And again, I think that's becoming a commodity and we're all getting, **[11:25]** I definitely see that every day I have probably 40, 50 emails in my inbox that start with the same **[11:32]** structure of, you know, congrats on your new world. I'm reaching out because, you know, we work with **[11:39]** companies in your industry. Here's an example of a company, et cetera. And I can think of one company **[11:47]** that reached out to me. I think it was actually a few years ago, but they literally mentioned **[11:54]** something that I said on the podcast a while back. And those are the things that stand out. And again, **[12:02]** those are the things that, that's the level of, you know, diligence that I think people need to **[12:10]** do nowadays in order to stand out. Because again, we're all getting bombarded with AI generated **[12:16]** emails and stuff. And so again, going back to that human connection that, that, that we need to ### 12:24 — Events, and the LEGO booth people still remember four years later **[12:24]** leverage and, you know, smart people actually, you know, do that. So well, let's talk about a place **[12:32]** where you cannot fake it. And one of the channels that does seem to be getting even more investment **[12:39]** now and really driving a lot of the revenue, the companies that we're working with is events. **[12:46]** So if you're going to industry events, if you're going to trade shows, even like smaller, **[12:52]** maybe local pop-up type of events too, how do you approach these and how do you make sure you stand **[12:58]** out? Yeah, it's a good point. And I think it goes back to again, understanding humans. So I'll give **[13:06]** you an example. You know, a few years ago, I was advising a relatively small company and, you know, **[13:12]** this was post COVID we're back to doing conferences. And, you know, naturally, you know, if you've been **[13:20]** to conferences, especially tech conferences, you know, everybody has the purple booth, the dark **[13:25]** booth, the blue booth, they're wearing the company's t-shirt. It's again, typically the same color. **[13:31]** It's the same. They have the company's logo. It's, you know, it's very hard to stand out. And so I was, **[13:41]** you know, I was thinking about, you know, the conferences, it's a pretty cold experience. It's, **[13:50]** you know, especially if you go by yourself, you don't know anybody, you're walking around, **[13:55]** you have a bunch of strangers, you know, poking at you and trying to start a conversation. And it's, **[14:01]** it's not the most fun thing. And so, so I was trying to think how we make it fun and, **[14:09]** you know, and what kind of, you know, what people are so sad with a warm experience. And it's, **[14:16]** there's a couple of things, but, you know, dogs and pets, definitely one, you know, kids is another **[14:24]** thing. You know, and one of the ideas I came up back then was Lego. And so everybody likes Lego. **[14:31]** We all played Lego and we were kids. And so I, you know, we branded our entire booth as, you know, **[14:40]** in the Lego theme. We actually had an artist at the booth that was, you know, was drawing people **[14:48]** as Lego figures. And then, you know, we found a vendor that would print a fully custom figure in, **[15:00]** you know, Lego figure in that, that, that we would give them the next day. And we were wearing these, **[15:06]** I actually have one of these shirts. And so we're wearing these funky shirts and, **[15:13]** and funny enough, like four years later, I, I've been going back to this conference almost every **[15:18]** year. And four years later, I met someone and, and it was like, I remember you. It took him like a **[15:26]** minute and then he was like, oh, you're the guy with the, with the Lego, the Lego theme, the Lego **[15:32]** shirt. And, and I was like, wow, four years down the line, you still remember that. So again, **[15:38]** I think it's about creating a memorable experience. It's about creating a, you know, something that **[15:46]** would feel different. Last year we did, we did the same conference again and I'm probably, you know, **[15:54]** I'm starting to reveal all my trade secrets, but what the heck the, and so I was thinking again, **[16:01]** how do we differentiate? You have all these blue and purple and, and so I, I came up with the theme **[16:08]** of, you know, summer vacation. This was the conference in Europe in the middle of the winter. **[16:16]** You know, it was close to minus degrees. It was raining. And, and so I was like, I mean, **[16:24]** you all wish that you were, you were in some, you know, topical island, et cetera. **[16:30]** And so we had these, you know, we were wearing like hats with straw hats and, and short pants **[16:40]** and flip-flops in the middle of the winter. And we had these like funky shirts. That's awesome. **[16:47]** We had an led backward instead of like your typical static, you know, backward. And so pretty **[16:55]** much from the, you know, if you're standing at the end of the hall and, you know, looking left and **[17:02]** right, you would see like this led world that's, you know, with images changing and you would see **[17:08]** the, you know, as we were walking down the eyes, you know, we were, we clearly stood out because **[17:14]** we didn't have these, you know, I don't know, black shirts or purple shirts or blue shirts. And so, **[17:21]** so yeah, I mean, that's kind of how you, you know, you stand out in a conference and you **[17:27]** just think about what's one, what's people's experience and feeling when they go for a **[17:32]** conference and, you know, how do you create something that's warm and fuzzy. And so, yeah, **[17:41]** one of my, on my wish list is, you know, I mentioned that people like dogs and I would love to **[17:48]** like bring a bunch of, you know, dogs to a conference. I think logistically and insurance **[17:54]** wise, that's probably a little more complex, but yeah, I mean, maybe at some point the, **[18:01]** the shirts and in the led world is not going to work and we're going to need to **[18:06]** figure out a way to bring dogs. But, but yeah, I mean, that's, that's a good example of, **[18:12]** you know, standing out and then, you know, a lot of people, they, they ask you, well, **[18:18]** why do you wear that shirt or what's the idea with the booth? And that's a great conversation **[18:22]** starter and, and, you know, in all cases, this was a very successful conference for us. I love how ### 18:31 — Booth ideas have a half-life too, and the 3D mini-me **[18:31]** you're already thinking of the half-life of the Lego shirt though, where you're saying, okay, **[18:36]** I know this work then, but we're not going to be able to do the same thing. I'm pretty certain if **[18:40]** you feel a booth full of puppies that people are going to come visit and stop by and spend some **[18:44]** time at the booth. I just need the organizers to be on board with that. But you're right. I, **[18:50]** you know, we did the Lego and then I, you know, I think a year after I started seeing a bunch of **[18:55]** companies, you know, use the same theme of Lego a little bit differently, but kind of the giveaways **[19:02]** were similar, et cetera. And so I, so yeah, you got, you got to think, you know, kind of a few **[19:10]** steps ahead. I'll, I'll share maybe one last thing that, that we kind of did in the last conference. **[19:16]** And so, which was essentially printing people's mini me. And so, yeah, you know, logistically, **[19:26]** it was, it took a while to figure it out, but we've kind of been putting in the conference, **[19:34]** you know, for certain high value prospects, we've been printing, **[19:39]** you know, an image of them in 3D and, and have them essentially come back the next day to pick **[19:48]** it up. And so that was another kind of unique experience that, and it's something that goes **[19:55]** back with you. It's actually a month ago, we did that for an analyst and a month ago we had, **[20:00]** we had a call with that analyst and I, I literally, I saw that sitting on his desk and, you know, **[20:07]** right behind him. And so that was, that was pretty cool to see. So again, it's all about **[20:13]** creating a memorable experience that, you know, which, which is the reason that **[20:21]** prospects would, you know, would, would talk to you, would go by the booth. And then again, **[20:28]** you got to make sure, of course, there's a hook and there's a reason for them to, **[20:34]** you know, follow up with you after the conference. But if you're, if you're just like anybody, then **[20:39]** it's the same thing. You'll send an email, it will go to avoid, you know, and pretty much your, **[20:45]** there goes your ROI on, on conference. So I think a lot of people are afraid to have fun **[20:52]** with their brand and at events and take themselves too seriously. Where did you drop that fear? **[21:00]** And it opened up your ability to have fun ideas like this. **[21:05]** I guess that's the reason I like to work with early stage companies that, you know, **[21:09]** at the larger company, I would probably need approval from, you know, a wide range of **[21:17]** functions from legal, from marketing, et cetera. And I, that's part of why I like working for **[21:25]** these, these stages. It's, you know, you're not afraid to experiment. You're not afraid, **[21:34]** you know, to change your brand. You're not afraid to do the right thing. **[21:37]** And so, yeah, I think it's just, and I'm generally a very creative person if you haven't noticed yet, **[21:44]** but so, yeah, I, you know, I think having fun is, you know, it's not necessarily bad, **[21:52]** especially nowadays in, you know, where everybody goes to AI and it's like a very cold experience. ### 22:00 — Where AI belongs in GTM: the zero-drop website migration **[22:00]** Let's maybe talk about that. So you have that juxtaposed against like a really fun event, **[22:05]** fun giveaways, interacting in person. Then you just have this absolute tsunami of AI capabilities **[22:15]** that have entered go to market teams. So sales teams, marketing teams, they're getting completely **[22:21]** weaponized with AI to do all kinds of things. Where do you see where you should be taking **[22:28]** advantage of AI and where you should really be implementing AI in marketing or sales? **[22:33]** And what should you not be using AI for? So I'll give you an example of where I used AI, **[22:42]** you know, pretty recently. So recently we designed a website and, you know, historically I would **[22:49]** hire a designer and I would have him like redesign all the pages and, you know, we'll **[22:54]** put content in, et cetera, and then we'll migrate the website and there's going to be a bunch of **[23:00]** issues and, you know, and ranking will drop and traffic will drop, et cetera. And in this case, **[23:09]** so I hired the same designer to kind of do the homepage and, you know, this was mostly kind of, **[23:16]** you know, brainstorming on, you know, how we want the website to look like. And at some point, **[23:23]** I think we kind of landed in a good place and pretty much from there I, you know, we used AI **[23:30]** for the entire process. So we used AI to create the animations on the website. We used AI to **[23:38]** create the additional pages. So I would be like, hey, here's our page. Here's the new design for **[23:44]** the homepage. And I would, you know, I would like you to redesign that page for, you know, **[23:51]** based on the template. And again, it would, you know, it's still, it's not like a five-minute **[23:57]** thing. It still took a few hours, but I mean, and then I would, I would say, okay, now let's, **[24:06]** let's work on SEO and AEO together. What's the, you know, change this header and add some more **[24:12]** content and look at our comparators website and, you know, suggest some changes and so on and so **[24:19]** forth. And I think, you know, that process took roughly the same amount of time that it would take **[24:25]** in the, you know, in the old days, if you will. But, but I think the outcome was way better. The, **[24:34]** the migration was super smooth. I, you know, I, you typically see those graph where there's a **[24:41]** drop and then slowly it starts getting back up. And I think in our case it, there was literally, **[24:49]** you know, zero impact. So that's, that's an example of where we use the AI, you know, to, **[24:57]** to fully complete that process and something that we, you know, would probably look at very **[25:03]** differently a few, a few years ago. I also, you know, nowadays in meetings, for example, **[25:10]** I have a bunch of recorders. I, you know, my ability to follow up on, in a timely manner, **[25:17]** my ability to remember what we spoke at a prior meeting, you know, significantly enhanced. I ### 25:25 — 500 reps interviewed, 90% didn't do basic research **[25:25]** actually find it interesting, you know, like, like I said, I do, I do a lot of interviews and, **[25:32]** you know, we're scaling very fast and so I'm probably interviewing two, three reps every day. **[25:39]** And again, I find myself preparing to, you know, meetings using AI. I have AI going through my **[25:45]** calendar every day and, you know, combining notes from, you know, from the CRM, from, you know, **[25:53]** LinkedIn, the web, and essentially preparing me for, for those meetings. And yet I, I find that **[26:01]** many times reps, you know, they get on these calls and they haven't done basic due diligence. They **[26:08]** beyond like what's on the homepage and maybe even what's on the hero section, they, **[26:13]** they can't speak intelligently about, you know, about our company. And, and, and I'm actually **[26:21]** a little bit surprised with that because again, it's pretty easy to prepare for meetings nowadays. **[26:27]** And as a sales rep, if you're not preparing for, you know, that one, two interviews that you have **[26:33]** in a given week, you're definitely not going to prepare for the free-form meetings that you have **[26:38]** on your calendar every day. And so, so again, those are some areas where, you know, I find AI to be **[26:48]** both helpful and, and maybe underutilized. **[26:53]** I'm really surprised to hear that too, because you're essentially a prompt away. **[26:57]** Hey, I have a sales interview coming up in 10 minutes. Please research the company, **[27:04]** their competitors, how they're going to market, what channels seem to be working, **[27:07]** anything they're doing that's unique. And how can I prepare best and, **[27:12]** and give me a one-pager I can walk in with. That should take two seconds. **[27:16]** You're right. I, you know, even thinking back to the discussion that we had a few minutes ago about **[27:22]** the human touch, I, we're doing this, this podcast in a few weeks, that podcast is going to be out. **[27:30]** I would, you know, I think, like I said, people make decisions in the first couple of minutes. **[27:36]** I'm pretty sure. And, you know, cause I'm, you know, this is a human nature. **[27:41]** If someone's going to get on the call and it's going to say, Oh, you know, I listened to your **[27:45]** podcast. The podcast that you did a few weeks ago, and you mentioned this and that, which is why, **[27:53]** you know, I really prepared for this interview again. And again, you don't really need to listen **[27:58]** to the podcast. You can just have AI summarize the key points for you. Very easy to do. I, **[28:06]** and then again, when I look back, I don't know, five, 10 years ago, whenever I was interviewing **[28:12]** with a company, I would probably before the first call, I would have five pages ready about, you **[28:18]** know, the, who the main customers are and, you know, the people and, you know, do I have any **[28:24]** common connections with them? And I would look at videos of their products, et cetera. And so **[28:29]** nowadays it's even a lot easier to, you know, prepare for those meetings. And yet, and I have **[28:36]** a pretty, I mean, I've probably interviewed over 500 sales reps over the last, I don't know, six, **[28:44]** seven, eight months. And I would say over 90% of them don't, don't even do that basic research. So **[28:55]** very surprising, but yeah, I mean that, that is the reality today. What do you think is happening? **[29:00]** Do you think people are getting atrophy because they don't have to manually do some of these **[29:05]** things and like think through their processes, like you had to do a few years ago, or is this **[29:11]** just like standard laziness that may have been there before? What do you think is driving that? **[29:20]** I'll share with you two reflections. Like, I mean, you know, this is just my opinion. I don't, **[29:25]** you know, it's not something that I've researched or, or anything like that. But I, **[29:31]** I think I attribute that to two things. So first of all, you know, and it's funny, because **[29:38]** I talked to friends and, you know, I shared that same experience that I just shared a few minutes **[29:44]** ago. And everybody's surprised because they hear off layoffs and AI is, you know, taking your job. **[29:51]** And so, you know, they will expect people to up the game. And I think the reality is I find that, **[30:01]** and I think it's an evolution over time. You know, our parents used to work for that same company **[30:08]** for 40 years, you know, and then at some point you probably switch jobs, but you know, you would **[30:14]** still stay with the same company for a number of years. And I think for all time, you know, **[30:21]** I remember like 10, 15 years ago, if you didn't stay for, with one company for at least three years, **[30:27]** it would be a red flag. And nowadays I, you know, I interview folks and some of them have, **[30:34]** you know, haven't had the same job and been with the same company for, **[30:39]** for more than two years. And so I think part of it is, you know, people are just switching jobs **[30:45]** more frequently, at least in, you know, the candidates that I interview, which is mostly **[30:51]** sales and a little bit of marketing, you know, also the younger generation, I think the standard **[30:57]** of like, you know, if I'm not happy in this job, I, you know, why should I be miserable? I'm just **[31:03]** going to move on. Or if my, you know, I like this, you know, I'm working for a manager that I don't **[31:10]** like. So let me just, you know, switch to another company. I think the switching cost is significantly **[31:17]** low. And so I think that's one part of it. And, and yeah, the other part is maybe it's just so easy **[31:25]** nowadays that people just don't do the F or they're like, you know, I'm just going to get on five **[31:31]** interviews a week and I'm going to do the minimal preparation needed. And, and if those opportunities **[31:39]** will get to a later stage, then I'll do, you know, I'll do more, more preparation. So I think that **[31:46]** might be the other part. One thing that I am, you know, missing a lot in these interviews is, **[31:53]** and again, it might go back to that switching course, but, you know, when I interview websites, **[31:58]** I, you know, the way that I interviewed with companies was I would see myself in the world **[32:05]** and I would figure out what pieces of information do I need, one, to be successful in that world, **[32:12]** and two, to make a decision if I want to join the company or not. And, and yet again, I, you know, **[32:18]** I, I interview reps and the questions are very basic and, and, you know, I'm kind of scratching **[32:27]** my head and asking myself, why did he ask that question? How would that question help him, ### 32:33 — The question reps should ask: why do we win, why do we lose? **[32:33]** you know, figure out whether that's the right opportunity for him or not? So a good question **[32:39]** for a sales rep, which I rarely get asked is why do we win? Why do we lose your sales rep? You want **[32:46]** to know that, you know, we don't lose because of the product. We don't lose because of, I don't **[32:52]** know, because our product is not competitive with whatever or pricing or things like that. And yet I, **[32:59]** you know, I don't know, I find people asking questions that are, you know, tell me about your **[33:05]** go-to-market organization. I mean, I don't know how that's going to help you decide if that's the **[33:11]** right opportunity or not. And honestly, you can go to LinkedIn. You can see who's on the company. **[33:18]** You can pretty much map who's managing who and, you know, maybe you can ask a question like, hey, **[33:23]** I saw that your marketing team is such and such people and you recently added that person. Is that, **[33:32]** you know, is that a valid channel for you? Are you getting enough in bonds? I think, you know, **[33:36]** this would be a valuable question. But, you know, asking me how my go-to-market organization looks **[33:43]** like is, I mean, it's, if you have an opportunity to ask two or three questions, that's really one **[33:49]** of the questions that you want to ask. And so I find it so surprising. And I think a lot of those ### 33:57 — Tenure, short stints and what a 270% claim hides **[33:57]** things, if you don't spend enough time and get enough tenure, you may not even realize that some **[34:03]** of those things are why you're winning or losing or having some setbacks and overcoming some **[34:09]** adversity within the same role. That doesn't happen in just one year. So I'm definitely not **[34:15]** advocating, hey, stay in the same business for 20, 40, 50 years. But you should have a few runs **[34:25]** that are like three years, maybe a four-year run because it's, did you spend enough time somewhere **[34:34]** to actually go through challenges and actually make an impact and actually see something change **[34:39]** in scale? Because if you just have a bunch of one-year runs, you're not really picking up anything **[34:45]** along the way. And you probably didn't even make any major decisions where you had enough time to **[34:50]** see if those even panned out or not. So when I'm looking at people, it doesn't have to be everyone, **[34:57]** but I'm scanning resumes and saying, did you have one where you had a three to four-year run **[35:01]** at a company? Just one, just give me one, where you really dug your heels in and made a commitment **[35:08]** somewhere. Because otherwise, I'm not confident you're really learning anything along the way. **[35:14]** I think the sales is generally the lifespan of a sales rep inside the company, especially nowadays. **[35:25]** I think it's on the shorter side compared to marketing or customer success or maybe even **[35:33]** engineering. Having said that, I totally agree with you. I can remember the number of times where I **[35:43]** looked at someone's resume and he's like, I did 270% quota attainment in 2025, and yet they left **[35:54]** in February of 2026. And I asked the question, well, I mean, you did so well last year. Why did **[36:02]** you leave? And honestly, it doesn't matter what he's going to say. Logically, it just doesn't make **[36:11]** sense. And so my manager left. There was restructuring. There was the company restructured the **[36:20]** entire go-to market team. They pivoted. And I'm like, listen, if you're at a company, and let's **[36:26]** say there were 10 reps at that company at that stage, and you did 270%, and there was maybe at **[36:33]** least one or two other reps that hit quota, you just secured, I don't know, $3 million for the **[36:39]** company. And let's say there were two other reps that, I mean, ultimately the company was doing **[36:44]** probably like $10 million in 2025. If they're all doing so well, then they wouldn't restructure the **[36:52]** go-to market team or pivot or whatever it is. And so something doesn't end up here. And I find that **[37:00]** how to believe that you are the only one that like made 270% and all the other reps like, you know, **[37:08]** were so shitty that, you know, they had to restructure the team or let go of your manager **[37:14]** or whatever. And so, yeah, so, and again, I think it goes back to the fact that, you know, **[37:24]** reps are just not doing a great job at vetting their next opportunity, really being critical **[37:30]** and intentional about that. And again, making sure, you know, you can still join a company and maybe a **[37:36]** few more months afterwards, your manager leaves and, you know, you get a new manager that doesn't **[37:42]** really like you or, you know, decides to bring his own team and stuff like that. But again, that can **[37:49]** be once in your life that cannot be, you know, your story throughout the last six, seven years. **[37:57]** And yet I, you know, I find that I would say one or four reps that I interview that's kind of the, **[38:05]** when you look at their career, the last three companies have been relatively short stints. **[38:10]** Unfortunately, I think, you know, the market is such that they would still find a job and they **[38:15]** would still, you know, someone is going to offer, you know, 300k on target, even to those reps and, **[38:24]** and they're probably not going to be successful there and they're probably gonna, you know, **[38:29]** the company will restructure the go-to market team and so on and so forth. So, but that's the reality. **[38:35]** It's just, it's just weird where you would think the supply and demand equation would **[38:41]** kind of figure itself out. And also, I don't think people realize if you're a sales rep, **[38:46]** let's assume, I know a lot have ambitions to get into sales management, sales leadership, **[38:52]** BCRO one day, you usually get those leadership positions when there's turmoil in the company. **[38:58]** So there's a leader leaves and they have nobody else and you're the rep who was 300% of their **[39:05]** quota. Hey, maybe we'll make you the leader. That, that's how you get your first in to a **[39:10]** leadership position. It's usually not happening when everything is going really, really well, **[39:15]** because then the company can just recruit who already has amazing experience and do it. So. **[39:19]** Or alternatively, I'll just offer another perspective. All the company has grown so **[39:23]** fast and you're the founding AE or you're one of the first AEs and you know, you did phenomenally **[39:31]** well and they hired a bunch of reps and needed someone to train them and manage them. And so you, **[39:38]** again, the company was growing so fast and you're going with the company and I, **[39:42]** which I think is, is a phenomenal, uh, journey. Yeah. Well, I guess you only find out if you **[39:49]** stay around a little bit, those opportunities present himself after time. And I think, you know, ### 39:56 — What Shani hires for: learning, creativity, ownership **[39:56]** maybe I'll, I'll, I'll turn that around. Cause I, you know, it feels like the last couple of minutes **[40:01]** were a little bit too negative. So I'll turn that around and I'll, I'll tell you kind of what I'm **[40:06]** looking for, uh, for reps when I hired them. So, uh, you know, beyond kind of the standard, **[40:13]** you know, salesmanship, et cetera. So I look for people that can learn. And so, uh, I typically **[40:20]** asked them to give me an example of something new that they learned. It doesn't have to be **[40:24]** necessarily in the professional life or in, you know, sales related. It can be, **[40:29]** I learned how to play the guitar. I learned, uh, you know, I had a rep that, uh, I interviewed a **[40:34]** few months ago, uh, that told me that he was passionate about, uh, model cycle. And he, **[40:41]** he started assembling and disassembling motorcycles and he was just looking at YouTube and, you know, **[40:47]** learning how to do that. And that to me, it shows me that someone is able to learn and they're not **[40:53]** necessarily looking for, you know, a six months, a neighbor program. They can get their hands dirty **[41:01]** and quickly get up and running. And as a startup, that's very important for me. So that's, uh, **[41:06]** that's one thing I, I look for creativity and problem solving. I think, you know, **[41:11]** it, uh, a sales process is typically not linear, especially at an early stage. You, **[41:17]** there's a lot of things to figure out. It's not that you get a playbook that, uh, you know, **[41:22]** 50 other reps have followed. And so, uh, yeah, I'm looking for someone that's, uh, that's, uh, **[41:28]** dynamic, that's, uh, that's creative that, uh, and so I asked them, you know, what was the most **[41:34]** creative way that you got in front of someone. It's typically also the, you know, the, if they **[41:39]** really did that, then they'll tell you a story that they're very passionate about. And it's, **[41:44]** it's kind of an opportunity to get someone out of his shell. I'm looking for someone who's, uh, **[41:50]** maybe a little more T-shaped. And so, uh, you know, if you've been a sales rep with a large company, **[41:56]** then you get marketing, giving you data sheets and all kinds of PDFs and you get an SE that **[42:02]** supports you on the technical front, et cetera. And so I'm, you know, I'm looking for someone again, **[42:09]** early stage company. If, uh, if you need a document and you don't have that, then you need **[42:14]** to create that document. And nowadays, honestly, with AI, it's very easy to also create that **[42:19]** document. So I'm looking for those reps that, uh, uh, you know, would not just sit around and, **[42:25]** you know, wait for other functions in the company to, you know, to support them. And so, you know, **[42:32]** if you ask a rep, uh, yeah, marketing didn't give me enough leads. And so I didn't have enough **[42:38]** pipeline or the, the SDR team didn't step up. And, uh, well, I mean, if the SDRs didn't step up, **[42:46]** then you probably didn't enable them well enough or you probably didn't give them enough direction. **[42:53]** Oh, you know what? Maybe the SDRs were shitty. So how did you create pipeline? Because ultimately **[42:58]** as a sales rep, you're, you're measured on your number. And so the only way to achieve that number **[43:04]** is, you know, to build pipeline. So it doesn't matter any excuse whether the, you know, the **[43:11]** product was shitty. The team that supported you weren't, uh, doing great job though. Focusing on **[43:17]** other territory is whatever it's, uh, ultimately it's, uh, you know, it's your responsibility. And **[43:26]** so, uh, that's, that's partially, by the way, that's also my philosophy around, uh, you know, **[43:32]** why I like to own sales and marketing. Um, cause then, you know, I can't complain to anyone that, **[43:39]** uh, you know, if we didn't hit the number or if we don't have enough pipeline, the bus stops with me. **[43:44]** And you know, I, if marketing is not doing a good job, then, you know, I manage marketing, **[43:51]** it's my responsibility to help them step up or replace them. Same thing for the SDR team, **[43:57]** same thing for the sales team. So I also think it's really important for the CRO down, both **[44:02]** marketing and sales, just to your point, there's one person accountable. There's no finger pointing, **[44:07]** which, which happens a lot between sales and marketing. Um, how, how did you, I would love ### 44:08 — How he got fluent in both sales and marketing **[44:12]** to hear how you got so proficient in both. Cause it seems like you have this tremendous **[44:16]** creative capability showing up at the trade shows, knowing what's going to work to **[44:22]** engage your potential prospects, but then also having really good, strong foundations and sales **[44:29]** and how to hire reps. How did you really get the well-rounded experience? I think going back to **[44:37]** maybe what I said about being T-shaped and being able to learn, I think that's, uh, that's probably, **[44:43]** you know, a strong, strong attributes for me. And so, uh, uh, you know, when I start, I started **[44:50]** my career as an engineer and then I figure out, uh, I guess if I'm going to say the late nineties, **[44:56]** then that's gonna disclose my age. But, uh, I got two job offers from Cisco. One is in the engineering **[45:03]** team and another one was in sales and marketing. And I figured that I enjoy talking to people more **[45:08]** than I enjoy sitting in front of my laptop. And I kind of made a transition to that. And, and then **[45:14]** I joined the public company where I was kind of the, uh, I was part of the strategy team and I, **[45:23]** and we're a very small team. And I figured that if, uh, you know, if I want to do something beyond **[45:28]** just building plans and Excel sheets, then, you know, I gotta step up and be the program manager **[45:36]** and the product manager and the sales guy. And so I started doing all of that. And so, um, **[45:44]** so again, I think throughout my career, I, especially in, uh, well, I think even to this day, **[45:50]** I've never had a, you know, a job where I was replacing someone and they were like, okay, **[45:57]** here's the awesome responsibilities and here's the, uh, you know, a playbook that, uh, the person **[46:05]** before you, um, uh, you know, use them. So, so I think that was part of that. And then when I, **[46:12]** um, uh, you know, when I joined my first startup, I, uh, uh, you know, there was no sales, no **[46:21]** marketing. So I started doing, uh, you know, sales and, uh, and then I, I started building my marketing **[46:28]** team and, uh, I, you know, I'm very hands-on and I'm very involved in the details. And so it was, **[46:35]** uh, I think I was partially looking at that, uh, that marketing leader and what he was doing. And, **[46:42]** uh, and we're working pretty closely together. So I kind of figure out what's working and what's not. **[46:47]** And again, very quickly, I, I developed a theory that, uh, I've been in larger companies. So I've **[46:53]** seen, you know, kind of that finger pointing of, uh, you know, sales and marketing pointing figures **[46:59]** with each other and, uh, you know, marketing generating leads, sales is not following up on **[47:04]** that and those sort of things. And I, uh, uh, you know, I think it's, uh, as an early stage company, **[47:11]** one, you don't have the luxury of, uh, you know, dropping the ball. And, you know, one thing that **[47:17]** you have going for you is that, uh, everybody's, you know, kind of aiming for that same goal, **[47:24]** which is also why, you know, I, I never really believed in the philosophy of, oh, marketing owns **[47:30]** MQL or SQL and sales on, uh, you know, pipeline and revenue. And I, uh, every time I had a revenue **[47:38]** leader, I was, uh, sorry, a marketing leader, I was, uh, uh, you know, this is our target. This **[47:44]** is my number. This is also your number. I don't care if you're generating thousands of leads and **[47:50]** they don't convert. And I don't care if you're generating thousands of leads and, you know, **[47:54]** the SDR team is not following up on that. We're a small enough team that you need to work together **[47:59]** with them, you know, to ultimately achieve that number. If, uh, if you're achieving your goals, **[48:06]** then I'm not achieving mine. Then, you know, we're pretty much, uh, uh, you know, we, we didn't do **[48:12]** anything here. Uh, again, I think I just, I was very observant around what's working, what's not, **[48:18]** and observing that and learning that quickly. And, uh, you know, talking to other people in **[48:24]** the industry to figure out what's working for them. And, uh, yeah. And after doing that for, **[48:31]** I guess, almost 15 years, it's, uh, it kind of became a second nature. I think it's every, **[48:39]** it's every company that I've been with with the exception of one company where I, I initially **[48:46]** joined without owning marketing. And, uh, I think it took four months for us to figure out that it's **[48:52]** not working. I, I remember that, uh, you know, we wanted to change the messaging and we wanted to **[48:59]** change, uh, you know, the, the landing pages and stuff. And it was all a very long cycle. It was **[49:06]** also a marketing team that came from larger companies. And so, you know, there was an agency **[49:12]** and you needed to create a ticket. And, uh, and it like took almost two months for every change to **[49:19]** land. And, uh, it was, you know, it was driving me crazy. And, uh, and like I said, I mean, **[49:26]** I didn't have a choice. I needed to meet my members. And so I, I started, this was post-COVID **[49:33]** and I just started doing a bunch of, uh, events that I, I would literally organize myself. I would **[49:39]** be, you know, anything from inviting people to finding the venue, to ordering the food and, **[49:47]** and so on and so forth. Uh, and, uh, cause again, nobody cares ultimately that the marketing team **[49:54]** doesn't step up. And so I think after like four months, we, we figured out that, uh, that it's **[50:01]** not working and I, uh, I took over the marketing team and, uh, you know, essentially hired new **[50:07]** people, but, uh, um, so yeah, that's, that's kind of how I came about to manage your both sales and **[50:15]** marketing. And, uh, um, and I think that's, that's been a key to the success that I had at, uh, **[50:24]** almost any company that I've been with. I love it. Well, I appreciate the relentless pursuit to **[50:33]** win, hit the number. It doesn't matter if it's my job or not, my job is to hit the number. So I'm **[50:38]** going to figure out the best way to do that. And I think as you were alluding to earlier, **[50:43]** if there are any reps that want to reach out, work with you, I know the team is growing. I know the **[50:49]** team is scaling. I'm sure that's going to be part of what you're looking for in anyone to join your **[50:54]** team. Um, so listen to this podcast and, uh, and then, uh, you know, make sure you have that in **[51:03]** your toolbox when, uh, when, when you're reaching out and when we're talking, but, uh, yeah, we are, **[51:09]** we are going on all fronts, uh, you know, sales, marketing, customer success. And, uh, um, so, you ### 51:18 — Wrap: the lifespan of what works is shrinking **[51:18]** know, I'm always looking for good people. Well, Shannon, thank you so much for everything you **[51:26]** shared today. I really appreciate the concept of the half-life of every single channel. I think a **[51:30]** lot of people have ingrained in their heads that, Hey, certain channels are evergreen. As long as you **[51:35]** keep pumping resources into them, they're going to keep producing pipeline, but you really need **[51:40]** to be evaluating those every single step of the way. And the one thing on the human connection side, **[51:46]** have some fun, stand out, be human, find a way to connect by a Lego shirt. Maybe not. Maybe the **[51:52]** half-life is already over on that one, but do something. If you can get the show floor to **[51:56]** approve puppies, it sounds like that might work. Um, but I really liked the approach there too. **[52:02]** And then of course bridging sales and marketing, getting them aligned with one goal and all rowing **[52:08]** in the same direction to achieve the company's mission. I think you, you summarize that well, **[52:14]** and I, you know, I'll leave you with maybe one thought that, uh, as the kind of, as you, **[52:19]** you're summarizing that I thought about is, uh, the lifespan of, you know, what's working is **[52:27]** significantly shorter. I think, uh, you know, uh, industries are changing more frequently than, **[52:33]** than ever before. And so again, if previously I did, I don't know, webinars on LinkedIn, **[52:40]** and for about three years, it worked very well. I think nowadays it's, um, you know, **[52:46]** whatever's working might not work in 12 months, which is, which is why you constantly need to **[52:54]** experiment with new things and never, uh, settle for the start of school. And so, uh, so that's, **[53:00]** that's kind of my philosophy. That's, uh, probably another, you know, uh, value that I care with me **[53:06]** everywhere is, uh, is I, I constantly need to figure out what's, uh, you know, what's working. **[53:14]** And if I find something that's working and giving me, you know, six, 12 months edge over, um, over **[53:21]** my compared to us, then, you know, that's my key to success. And if I'm able to do that in a **[53:27]** sustainable way, uh, you know, over time, then, um, then again, that's, that's, that's the growth **[53:34]** engine that, uh, uh, that we're looking for. So yeah, I don't anticipate that velocity to slow down **[53:43]** one bit. So Johnny, thank you again for being on the podcast. Can't wait to see what you and **[53:51]** open observed do next. And can't wait for our audience to pull all these insights out as well. **[53:58]** Maybe puppies. That's, uh, that's next. Uh, but thanks for having me. This was fun. And **[54:04]** you know, I think we covered a lot of grounds and, uh, yeah, I appreciate, uh, you having me. **[54:13]** [BLANK_AUDIO] --- _LeanScale Knowledge Hub. Free to quote and cite with attribution to The LeanScale Podcast (https://www.leanscale.team)._