---
title: "The AI Hiring Echo Chamber Is Breaking Sales"
episode: 150
podcast: "The LeanScale Podcast"
publisher: "LeanScale"
guest: "Melissa McCann-Tilton"
guest_title: "President & Chief Revenue Officer"
date_published: 2026-11-04
date_modified: 2026-11-09
duration: 00:54:24
word_count: 8708
topics: ["sales-leadership", "ai-in-gtm", "outbound-sales", "gtm-strategy"]
canonical_url: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/melissa-mccann-tilton-criteria-ai-hiring-echo-chamber/
source: "LeanScale Knowledge Hub — https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge"
license: "Free to quote and cite with attribution to The LeanScale Podcast."
---

# The AI Hiring Echo Chamber Is Breaking Sales — Full Transcript

> Episode 150 of The LeanScale Podcast, with Melissa McCann-Tilton.
> Published November 4, 2026 · 00:54:24 · 8708 words.
> Machine-transcribed and **not diarized** — speaker attribution is inferred, so verify
> attribution against the audio before quoting a specific person.
> Structured breakdown: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/melissa-mccann-tilton-criteria-ai-hiring-echo-chamber/

## 00:00 — Cold open + intro

**[0:00]** My guest today is Melissa McCann-Tilton, President and Chief Revenue Officer at Criteria,

**[0:05]** the pre-employment assessment platform used by more than 4,000 organizations.

**[0:10]** The average tenure right now of a CRO and a CMO in the industry is 18 months.

**[0:16]** It's absurd.

**[0:17]** It's not long enough to get anything done.

**[0:20]** AI has just completely turned up the volume and raised the stakes of what it takes to stand out

**[0:30]** literally crazy.

**[0:31]** There's 11,000 applications submitted per minute on LinkedIn right now.

**[0:38]** Just on LinkedIn.

**[0:40]** Just on LinkedIn.

**[0:41]** Building something to last and you have to win the hearts and minds of your team.

**[0:46]** It's a very, very challenging thing to do.

**[0:48]** You know, it's important to note like it doesn't mean you're a pushover.

## 00:56 — "Melissa's going to do it": the meeting that pushed her into sales

**[0:56]** Melissa, you told me you got into sales because you needed a metric that a number was the one

**[1:01]** thing nobody could kick you out of the room for.

**[1:04]** Take me back to the moment where you figured that out.

**[1:07]** Anthony, it was a long time ago.

**[1:11]** I don't believe it.

**[1:12]** Long time ago.

**[1:14]** I was in a meeting.

**[1:16]** We were selling an automotive and I was in marketing at the time.

**[1:22]** I had sort of come up through lots of different types of roles.

**[1:27]** Almost intentionally.

**[1:28]** I had product roles.

**[1:29]** I had services roles and I landed in marketing.

**[1:32]** There was something about the go to market motion that just I liked and it made sense to me.

**[1:37]** But marketing was kind of tough back then because, you know, it was a little bit on the edge of leads

**[1:43]** being a metric and clicks being a metric early days.

**[1:46]** Like I said, it was a while ago.

**[1:49]** We were selling early iterations of websites to automotive CMOs, car companies.

**[1:59]** We were trying to convince car companies that they would sell cars online.

**[2:04]** Can you believe it?

**[2:08]** In this room, I'm sitting with a bunch of people who've been in the industry a long time.

**[2:13]** They were all men.

**[2:15]** One of the sales reps was trying we were trying to prep to go into the CMO meeting.

**[2:20]** One of the sales reps kept asking who was going to do the presentation.

**[2:23]** The CEO of the company I was with kept saying, "Well, Melissa is going to do it."

**[2:28]** The sales rep kept going, "But who's going to do it?"

**[2:32]** The CEO kept going, "Well, Melissa is going to do it."

**[2:35]** It was like he couldn't see me.

**[2:38]** He couldn't fathom that I was going to walk in the room and do the sales pitch.

**[2:43]** It just didn't compute to him.

**[2:46]** That was the moment that I was clear I have to shift from marketing into sales

**[2:53]** because you can measure sales.

**[2:55]** I was certain in my ability that if you gave me the number, I'd be able to get it done.

**[3:02]** The rest is history.

**[3:07]** Was your blood just boiling in that moment when that happened?

**[3:12]** What were you feeling during that time?

**[3:14]** Not really, honestly.

**[3:16]** I know we're going to talk a little bit about why women do or don't get into go-to-market today,

**[3:22]** but I think you expect it.

**[3:25]** Especially at that time, it was early 2000s,

**[3:30]** I was used to being in a position where I just had to prove myself.

**[3:34]** I had to be better than anyone else around me to be seen.

**[3:38]** I had to produce something tangible.

**[3:41]** So, certainly it's frustrating, but also it's just the way the system was set up.

**[3:49]** Well, I think for a lot of people, whatever you feel like is your thing that's giving

**[3:55]** you imposter syndrome or holding you back or you have to break through this perception,

**[4:00]** I do think it's a beautiful thing to boil down your performance to one number.

**[4:05]** I don't think there is another profession or role within a company where it can be so

**[4:12]** clear-cut.

**[4:13]** What has getting your focus on maximizing that number done for you in your career?

**[4:21]** I think it gives a common language.

**[4:24]** In a lot of ways, in a system where you're trying to sort out what the value creation is

**[4:30]** over the course of time, you always have to make money, period, end of story.

**[4:36]** Now, I caveat that I have been in some or in and around some venture capital type situations where

**[4:44]** we're still stuck in like we're creating vision.

**[4:48]** We don't care about money, but at some point they have to care about money.

**[4:53]** You have to make money to survive as a business.

**[4:57]** And I've been a part of businesses that actually went bankrupt because they lost sight of that.

**[5:02]** They got too much in that sort of vision camp, going to change the world kind of thing.

**[5:07]** And they forgot that they actually had to turn a profit.

**[5:11]** So I think what that gave me was that common language.

**[5:16]** And it gave me an undeniably.

**[5:20]** If I could produce the result, you couldn't deny me the seat in the room.

**[5:26]** And it was an interesting posture to reflect on.

**[5:29]** And I think that's evolved for me over the course of time,

**[5:32]** but that's certainly how I got into those rooms.

**[5:36]** Has it changed your focus of how you set up your activities, your priorities, your day as well?

**[5:41]** Because I think a lot of people are sitting in roles where

**[5:45]** they'll be investing a little bit into the politics.

**[5:47]** They'll be investing a little bit into the visible projects or initiatives.

**[5:53]** Did it help you stay focused to the results too?

## 05:57 — The double-edged sword and the 18-month CRO

**[5:57]** You have to be, because it's a double edged sword.

**[6:00]** It's the way you get in the room.

**[6:01]** It's also the way you get asked to leave the room.

**[6:06]** And I think that that's perhaps unique in a way to being a woman in that kind of role.

**[6:12]** I've been thinking about this a lot, actually.

**[6:16]** I think men face this as well.

**[6:19]** The average tenure right now of a CRO and a CMO in the industry is 18 months.

**[6:26]** It's not long enough to get anything done.

**[6:31]** So you think about all of these people out in the market right now

**[6:36]** that literally spend half their time just hunting for their next job.

**[6:43]** And they're smart people.

**[6:45]** They're smart people.

**[6:47]** So while the metric works, there's perhaps an over focus on the metric within a period of time.

**[6:56]** So I do think that the forcing function of you have to structure your week, your month,

**[7:04]** your quarter, so you're sure you're going to hit the metric.

**[7:08]** That's a really good way to prioritize.

**[7:11]** But what it doesn't, I think, give grace around is something happens in the market.

**[7:16]** A product release gets delayed.

**[7:18]** There's all sorts of externalities that happen to revenue leaders.

**[7:22]** And it's sort of unforgiving in a lot of ways.

**[7:26]** I think for both men and women, but I think if you sort of carry through my narrative around,

**[7:32]** you know, like the metric was the only way I stayed in the room.

**[7:35]** I didn't maybe have some of the relationship that I see some of the guys that I work with have.

**[7:41]** And that makes that other edge of the sword a little sharper.

## 07:47 — What's keeping women out of the CRO seat

**[7:47]** Let's get into that topic a little bit because I would love your perspective.

**[7:51]** I'm seeing the same thing too, what is keeping women out of the CRO position,

**[7:58]** out of sales in general, and also out of tech companies?

**[8:05]** And it's sort of trending right now, isn't it?

**[8:10]** It is.

**[8:11]** I have theories.

**[8:15]** And again, I think this is a thing men also experience.

**[8:18]** And based on some of the ways that I've structured teams in the past,

**[8:22]** where they were more friendly to, I would say, families, not just women, but families.

**[8:29]** Because men are part of families too.

**[8:32]** And turns out, men also want to go to soccer games, or dance recitals,

**[8:37]** or whatever your kid happens to be doing, or your dog happens to be doing,

**[8:42]** or your cat happens to be doing.

**[8:43]** So I think it sort of, it crosses the lines.

**[8:47]** I think that the rooms can be lonely for women.

**[8:52]** You sort of have to decide you want to be the only person in the room that's like you.

**[9:00]** And that can be discouraging.

**[9:03]** It's sort of, you know, you hear the narrative about you can only be what you can see.

**[9:08]** That's a thing that I, I don't know if somebody quoted it.

**[9:12]** It's a great quote.

**[9:13]** You can only be what you can see.

**[9:14]** You have to believe that that's a possibility for you.

**[9:17]** And you can't see very many women in these roles.

**[9:20]** So I think there's a little bit of headwinds with that.

**[9:23]** I think that the second thing around this has to do with money.

**[9:28]** And I think that women more frequently have underpinnings of baggage with money.

**[9:35]** Around security, safety, stability.

**[9:41]** And I don't think that's purely a woman thing, but I think it's louder.

**[9:46]** I think it's louder.

**[9:47]** You know, we have sort of these, I know about, I know for myself,

**[9:50]** I have a lot of like motherly tendencies.

**[9:52]** I have four children.

**[9:54]** I'm the breadwinner in the house.

**[9:56]** I need to make sure things stay on the rails.

**[10:00]** Can't be messing around.

**[10:01]** And sales is sort of a high risk, high risk, high reward kind of profession.

**[10:07]** Half your paycheck is always at risk.

**[10:10]** Like that is anxiety producing for a lot of women.

**[10:14]** To think about literally half your paycheck is always at risk.

**[10:17]** You must perform if you're going to get to that second half your paycheck.

**[10:21]** And I think the last thing is just a phenomenon I'm seeing.

**[10:25]** And I think this is why this is increasing right now.

**[10:27]** A phenomenon that I'm seeing in the market where we've over efficiencyed our companies.

**[10:34]** And I think the bringing in of AI is amplifying this issue.

**[10:40]** Because instead of redesigning the systems, instead of really rethinking the systems

**[10:45]** and the job descriptions and the way people do their work,

**[10:49]** we're just industrializing an old process.

**[10:53]** And in the lack of thought, it's kind of like turning a herd of goats loose on a hillside.

**[11:01]** Eventually, they're going to eat all the grass before you can plant any more grass.

**[11:05]** And I don't know where that leaves you with a bunch of goats and no grass.

**[11:14]** Well, and I do think if this is where you're going with this,

**[11:20]** a lot of the companies have trimmed the opportunities that are there in general.

**[11:25]** One area in particular, I think, is getting really, really hit hard by AI

**[11:30]** or any entry level positions.

**[11:32]** And where are the feeder systems into sales?

**[11:39]** A lot of SDR teams are getting a lot smaller.

**[11:42]** BDR teams are getting smaller.

**[11:45]** Fewer marketing roles, which I feel like we're good entry points

**[11:48]** into the go-to-market organization where you can move into that AE position

**[11:51]** or get into a sales role.

**[11:54]** Where do you think we're going to be finding new talent?

**[11:58]** How do you think we're going to be placing them in the company?

**[12:01]** And what does this do for women in that dynamic as well?

## 12:05 — AI SDR tools and redesigning the SDR job

**[12:05]** I have strong opinions about this BDR thing that's going on.

**[12:10]** Have you tried any of these AI, SDR kind of tools, solutions that are out there?

**[12:16]** They're horrendous.

**[12:17]** So I don't think that you can replace it with AI.

**[12:24]** But what I do think has happened, I'd love your opinion on this,

**[12:27]** AI has just completely turned up the volume and raised the stakes

**[12:34]** of what it takes to stand out.

**[12:38]** And I think it's very, very difficult for somebody with minimal experience,

**[12:42]** minimal relationship equity, minimal personal brand equity to do that.

**[12:48]** I've seen a few extraordinarily creative things work,

**[12:52]** but I think the job has become so much harder.

**[12:56]** And you're putting your most junior person on it to do it.

**[12:59]** Yeah, I think you're right.

**[13:02]** I'm glad you said you thought they were terrible.

**[13:04]** I mean, they're definitely not there yet.

**[13:06]** I don't think that's the role that you should be.

**[13:08]** I don't think they will get there.

**[13:09]** Do you think they will?

**[13:11]** I mean, maybe there's a world in our future where an AI, SDR is talking to an AI research agent

**[13:18]** on behalf of a company and we're skipping Google paid search entirely.

**[13:22]** And the agents have a discussion that then turns into a lead.

**[13:27]** I think that's entirely possible, but I think it's a ways off.

**[13:33]** I think there will always be a point where people want to buy from a person.

**[13:38]** So my SDR team is led by a woman.

**[13:42]** She is a firecracker.

**[13:44]** She's phenomenal.

**[13:44]** She'll be a CRO one day.

**[13:47]** She runs circles around most of my leaders in terms of coaching

**[13:52]** and being able to ramp people fast.

**[13:55]** But I think she does that because she redesigned the job.

**[14:01]** She didn't just keep doing the same SDR thing that we were doing 10 years ago.

**[14:07]** Louder.

**[14:08]** That's exactly what happens when you try to industrialize the old process.

**[14:13]** You scream louder, faster.

**[14:16]** It's just faster, louder screaming, which just irritates everybody, right?

**[14:20]** It's just it just sort of turns into a big noisy mess.

**[14:24]** So she redesigned the job so that she's teaching people how to connect emotionally,

**[14:33]** how to literally have techniques to look different

**[14:36]** than the AI people are encountering while they're researching solution.

**[14:40]** And it's very human.

**[14:42]** And I think that's what's interesting about her approach.

**[14:47]** And then those reps make incredible small business reps when they get promoted.

**[14:53]** They make incredible mid market reps when they get promoted

**[14:56]** because they they're being trained in relationship arts.

**[15:02]** Not how quickly can I send out eight zillion emails that don't mean anything.

**[15:08]** And I think that's going to be where we return to and go to market

**[15:12]** is this this relationship art, because I think customers want it.

**[15:18]** It's not efficient.

**[15:22]** But it produces great results.

**[15:24]** And I think that's the edge that we're going to have to find

**[15:28]** as go to market organizations over the next several years.

**[15:35]** Well, and I've been touting this for a little bit.

**[15:38]** I think if you're using AI only for efficiency, it's a complete race to the bottom.

**[15:42]** And it's a recipe to just lose.

**[15:46]** If you're leveraging AI to improve quality and improve outcomes,

**[15:50]** even for the same amount of prospects or customers

**[15:53]** or whatever you're pointing your efforts towards.

**[15:55]** That's where I think you can start to stand out and do really well.

**[15:58]** I'm curious, her team, because I think lots of teams

**[16:01]** would love to take a note on this.

**[16:04]** What does that look like in practice?

**[16:07]** Is she training them to go out to certain events,

**[16:10]** training them to find unique ways to connect with people?

**[16:14]** What does that look like in practice to where the future of an SDR is going?

**[16:19]** I think it looks less like applying AI to write the thing

**[16:24]** and more like applying AI to research the thing.

**[16:28]** So she's still using a lot of efficiency in the process,

**[16:33]** but we're using AI to really understand the industry we're walking into,

**[16:37]** to understand the person we're reaching out to,

**[16:41]** to get information that helps educate.

**[16:44]** So you think about like a person

**[16:45]** who doesn't have any business acumen yet because they're brand new, right?

**[16:48]** They're brand new, so you can use AI to educate yourself

**[16:52]** really rapidly on the salient points in a particular industry.

**[16:56]** So you have expert bullet points all of a sudden

**[16:59]** that would have taken you decades to acquire,

**[17:02]** and you can study up on them before you do that outreach,

**[17:05]** and that helps you sound like you're in the space already.

**[17:10]** Is it still the same mediums though?

**[17:12]** Are we talking email, LinkedIn, more or less the same ways to get connected out the gate?

**[17:17]** Yeah, we love Nooks as a solution that we use.

**[17:22]** So we're trying to be really conscious about automating the correct elements.

**[17:28]** Like you don't need to like sit and dial all day until somebody picks up.

**[17:33]** So you can find tools that do the things that you really don't need a human to do,

**[17:37]** but getting the relationship elements and really role-playing and coaching that through

**[17:42]** and getting that into people I think is really important.

**[17:46]** I think the other interesting thing she's doing,

**[17:48]** and this is this story I was just telling at a SHRM conference last week.

**[17:55]** One of the reps we hired on that team had been on the job market for 10 months.

**[18:02]** It like nobody would touch him.

**[18:04]** Nobody would touch him because his resume didn't look like it should for the job.

**[18:11]** And because we looked at a broader set of signals,

**[18:15]** we gave the guy a shot and he is the best SDR on the team.

**[18:19]** He's at 130% of his quota every single quarter.

**[18:22]** Like he's really, really good.

**[18:24]** And part of it is his grit.

**[18:26]** I mean, he was on the job market for 10 months.

**[18:28]** He's got a lot of grit, but also his appreciation.

**[18:32]** Like he's so happy that we gave him a shot and he works really hard because of it.

**[18:38]** And I think there's just non-traditional places.

**[18:41]** We're going to need to start to find people to build our teams.

**[18:45]** And we have to find ways to like go seek these folks out.

## 18:51 — The AI hiring echo chamber

**[18:51]** I think one of the things that's getting really difficult too,

**[18:54]** and you and I touched on this briefly in our prep session,

**[18:57]** but the AI hiring echo chamber.

**[19:02]** I think that's also making it really, really difficult for people to stand out.

**[19:08]** You also have people leveraging AI to write their resumes

**[19:12]** and kind of getting their foot in the door when maybe they shouldn't be getting in.

**[19:16]** And then you have the AI driving towards a common looking applicant

**[19:20]** that may miss some of those intangibles,

**[19:23]** some of those high potential profiles that are really, really tough to put a resume to.

**[19:29]** What has happened in the last couple of years in the hiring space?

**[19:34]** And what do you think we should be doing next?

**[19:38]** It's gone crazy.

**[19:41]** Like literally crazy.

**[19:42]** There's 11,000 applications submitted per minute on LinkedIn right now.

**[19:49]** Just on LinkedIn.

**[19:51]** Just on LinkedIn.

**[19:54]** It's insane.

**[19:55]** It's really insane.

**[19:58]** Another stat, one in four by 2028 of resumes will be completely fake,

**[20:03]** of applicants and resumes will be completely fake.

**[20:06]** Literally agents going and applying for jobs.

**[20:10]** Is it a fake person or just an agent that created a resume for a person

**[20:14]** that might not actually reflect their real experience?

**[20:16]** We're finding more and more fake people.

**[20:19]** Or agents that go rogue and try to get employed.

**[20:23]** Really?

**[20:24]** Is there a motive?

**[20:26]** Is there a certain motive to doing that?

**[20:29]** Or is it a bug in some of the agents and workflows?

**[20:32]** You can make money at these jobs.

**[20:37]** So I think there's definitely fraud happening in some ways.

**[20:45]** We've run across operations that are standing up agents,

**[20:48]** trying to get the agent to get a job so that they can bank money

**[20:52]** until they get found out.

**[20:53]** Remote work allows this to happen.

**[20:57]** The other scenario that we see a lot is the person who shows up to the job

**[21:05]** is different than the person who did the interview.

**[21:09]** Oh my.

**[21:10]** Yeah.

**[21:10]** So they send their smarter cousin in to do the interview,

**[21:15]** different person shows up for the job.

**[21:18]** And you can kind of fake it till you make it.

**[21:20]** I think the most common scenario and really what I see happening in the market

**[21:25]** most frequently right now is you can easily, really easily,

**[21:29]** you can just do like talking to your phone kind of thing.

**[21:32]** You don't even have to be expert at prompting or anything.

**[21:37]** Tell the AI to go find all the jobs on whatever platform,

**[21:40]** indeed LinkedIn, whatever, write applications for each of them

**[21:45]** and resumes that fit for each of them and submit them.

**[21:50]** So you get to the phone screen.

**[21:51]** The Canada has no idea they've even applied for the job.

**[21:54]** They don't know what the job is.

**[21:58]** And it's desperation.

**[22:00]** We can't really blame the candidate, right?

**[22:03]** Nearly 60% of candidates just get ghosted in their process right now.

**[22:08]** Nobody responds to them at all.

**[22:10]** So it's become a volume game for candidates.

**[22:12]** All they can do is sort of spray and pray.

**[22:15]** They have to just send out a ton until somebody pays attention to them.

**[22:19]** So the way that these recruiters are dealing with this

**[22:22]** is they're pointing the AI and their ATS at this volume issue, right?

**[22:26]** So I've got all these resumes.

**[22:28]** And I mean, like when I post a job, I get hundreds of applicants

**[22:31]** and we're a small company, right?

**[22:33]** We're not some giant company.

**[22:36]** So you point the ATS at the applicants and the ATS likes,

**[22:41]** the AI likes the sound of its own voice.

**[22:44]** It will only pick the AI written resumes.

**[22:47]** Well, the candidates now know this.

**[22:50]** So what choice do you have?

**[22:51]** You have to use AI to write your resume

**[22:54]** or you're never going to get through the filter.

**[22:56]** The AI will actually filter out more human written resumes

**[23:00]** because they think that the person is not as smart.

**[23:06]** So it becomes this echo chamber kind of situation.

## 23:10 — The system of effort: why half of hires fail

**[23:10]** And then once you get into the organization,

**[23:14]** you're almost 50% of the hires are likely to fail

**[23:18]** somewhere between six and 18 months, which is a ramp nightmare.

**[23:23]** So you're sort of creating this system of effort.

**[23:27]** So if you think about the over-application of efficiency in this situation,

**[23:30]** you're creating this system of effort where you're placing candidates

**[23:35]** who aren't good fits for jobs because they just need a job so badly.

**[23:39]** They get into the job and they try to make it work.

**[23:41]** They can't.

**[23:43]** Your company's lost all this time and money.

**[23:46]** The applicant's lost all this time and money.

**[23:48]** They end up getting fired.

**[23:49]** They go right back into the same system.

**[23:52]** And people are spending more and more time just job seeking

**[23:55]** as opposed to actually producing any growth in the market.

**[24:01]** Is this whole process, does it need to be completely revamped?

**[24:06]** I mean, is there any coming out of this?

**[24:08]** Because it feels like it's going to be pretty difficult

**[24:12]** to stop the AI production of resumes.

**[24:15]** And then without using AI to filter it out as well,

**[24:19]** you can try to maybe prompt to look for more human things.

**[24:22]** But then I'm assuming the AI's going to catch up and start making,

**[24:25]** I don't know, throwing in misspellings to make it look like it's more human.

**[24:30]** Where do we go from here?

**[24:31]** What do we do to get the right people and see?

**[24:36]** It's a big problem.

**[24:36]** When you think about leading go-to-market organizations too,

**[24:39]** just tying back to hitting that number,

**[24:41]** a lot of the way that we hit our number is hire really good people

**[24:45]** and ramp them really fast.

**[24:47]** And if you can't find good people and you can't get them to ramp,

**[24:52]** you're constantly missing your quota.

**[24:54]** Constantly.

**[24:55]** It's a hole you never get out of.

**[24:57]** Oh, it is a tragedy when you lose a few reps

**[25:01]** and you were expecting them to carry a million dollar bag midway through the year.

**[25:06]** You're not going to be able to hire and ramp someone for the remainder of the year.

**[25:09]** So you're just going to eat that loss and hope the rest of the team overperforms,

**[25:13]** which rarely happens unless your product is just too good

**[25:18]** where you probably don't even need a sales team anyway.

**[25:20]** But it's a very, very difficult problem.

**[25:26]** Before AI even, hiring people in sales has been one of the most difficult roles to hire for.

**[25:33]** We're such good BS artists.

**[25:38]** You've already had the AI filters on your resumes the entire time

**[25:41]** and fully prepared to know exactly what the other side wants to hear

**[25:45]** and how they want to hear it.

**[25:46]** And you don't have a lot of time, you know, they're probably in a rush.

**[25:49]** So you have some leverage there too.

**[25:51]** I mean, it's a very, very difficult situation to hire good salespeople.

**[25:55]** Yeah, it really is.

## 25:56 — More talent signals — and homework done in the room

**[25:56]** So we try to apply a variety of talent signals, not just one.

**[26:02]** Resume is one signal, right?

**[26:04]** It's a self-reported signal.

**[26:05]** So we apply a variety of talent signals, assessments,

**[26:09]** cognitive assessments, personality assessments.

**[26:12]** We give job simulations.

**[26:15]** We give work samples.

**[26:17]** So really trying to get a breadth of demonstration of skill

**[26:22]** as opposed to the reporting of skill.

**[26:25]** And I would also just, I would caution,

**[26:29]** one of the things I'm noticing more and more,

**[26:31]** is if you're doing remote work or remote hiring,

**[26:35]** or if you give somebody a homework assignment

**[26:37]** that you then want to bring them in to report out on,

**[26:41]** you almost have to have them do the homework in front of you now.

**[26:44]** Physically in front of you.

**[26:46]** Because it's, and you have to tell them what's acceptable

**[26:50]** from an AI use perspective and what's not.

**[26:53]** Because, you know, back like last year, just last year, so long ago.

**[27:00]** Feels like ages ago.

**[27:01]** Literally everything about my day is operated differently.

**[27:04]** How would you ever, anyway.

**[27:06]** It's just so much strange in here.

**[27:08]** It's really different.

**[27:09]** But you think just last year,

**[27:11]** if I gave a sales rep homework assignment

**[27:14]** and they produced a really good looking PowerPoint,

**[27:17]** they're probably a pretty good sales rep.

**[27:21]** Because they knew how to do that.

**[27:22]** They could put in the effort.

**[27:24]** I knew that they had to have done it themselves.

**[27:27]** I don't mean anything anymore.

**[27:30]** Because it all, you can like,

**[27:32]** in five minutes produce a really nice presentation

**[27:34]** out of cloud or chat GPT.

**[27:36]** And it's utterly meaningless now.

**[27:39]** So you really have to find other methods to test their skill.

**[27:44]** It's funny you mentioned that.

**[27:45]** Because we always had a test in our process too.

**[27:48]** So we're looking for go-to-market architects,

**[27:50]** go-to-market engineers.

**[27:52]** We're managing RevOps for anywhere from Series A to C,

**[27:56]** or pre-IPO companies.

**[27:58]** And we would have the assignment.

**[28:01]** The main thing we were looking for, if I rewind a year ago,

**[28:04]** the main thing we were looking for was simply quality of work.

**[28:08]** It wasn't even necessarily what the idea was.

**[28:11]** Or even how the approach was.

**[28:13]** I mean, as long as it wasn't completely off track.

**[28:16]** But the main thing was, can they show up and be polished?

**[28:21]** And put together assets that we would feel comfortable

**[28:24]** having them put in front of a client.

**[28:26]** But to your point, now they can do that 30 seconds of cloud.

**[28:29]** Yeah.

**[28:30]** Which is fine.

**[28:31]** But what are we testing for now?

**[28:35]** Now that they have access to that?

**[28:37]** Yeah, I think what your test...

**[28:39]** So the kinds of tests that we've been running recently

**[28:42]** that I think work the best,

**[28:44]** are ones where you give them a scenario

**[28:46]** and you literally sit them in front of you to solve it.

**[28:49]** Like, show me your work kind of thing.

**[28:51]** Because I want them to use AI,

**[28:53]** but I want to watch how they're using it.

**[28:55]** I want to see where they go to it.

**[28:57]** For what reason?

**[28:58]** And do they actually know what to do when they get in there?

**[29:01]** Which, in some cases, it's fine.

**[29:03]** You can train a person.

**[29:05]** But I'm watching for their questioning skills.

**[29:09]** I'm watching to see what they clarify as they do the exercise.

**[29:13]** Are they doing a discovery with me?

**[29:16]** Are they applying the discovery throughout the exercise?

**[29:19]** Did they listen?

**[29:21]** Were they able to emotionally connect back to me

**[29:24]** as they got the answer and create urgency in my process?

**[29:29]** And those things are adaptive learning skills

**[29:33]** that sort of sit around what we used to think of

**[29:36]** as sort of like that quality of work thing.

**[29:39]** You get to a quality of work now differently.

**[29:42]** And I think it requires all of those really human skills.

**[29:46]** And that's why I think everybody needs

**[29:47]** to be rewriting their job descriptions right now.

**[29:49]** Because I have...

**[29:51]** I mean, I'm sure everyone's experienced this.

**[29:53]** The reps that were like solid for years in this environment,

**[30:00]** they don't really like it.

**[30:03]** They don't really like it.

**[30:04]** It's a different method.

**[30:06]** And some of them are able to learn.

**[30:08]** And some of them are dug in.

**[30:09]** They're like, "I don't like it.

**[30:13]** Not gonna do it."

**[30:15]** So it's just a...

**[30:18]** It's a real learning moment, I think, for the industry.

## 30:21 — The SaaS playbook isn't working anymore

**[30:21]** You know, I was with our private equity firm

**[30:23]** in New York last week.

**[30:25]** And we were talking about this idea

**[30:26]** that SaaS for a long time has had a playbook.

**[30:33]** It's like a pretty standard go-to-market playbook, right?

**[30:39]** Like it suddenly turned into rocket science.

**[30:41]** Like the playbook isn't quite working right now.

**[30:44]** And I think that's visible in how few companies

**[30:49]** have exchanged hands in the private equity market this year.

**[30:52]** And it's visible in growth rates

**[30:56]** and the retooling that everybody's having to do.

**[30:58]** So if you're still trying to run your SaaS playbook,

**[31:04]** you're probably failing right now.

**[31:06]** And you can't figure out why.

**[31:08]** And I think this is just a retooling moment

**[31:10]** we're all gonna have to go through.

**[31:13]** I wholeheartedly agree with you.

**[31:15]** Part of me is a little excited that it's getting harder

**[31:18]** because I think it sifts out the real good companies

**[31:23]** from the ones that maybe just raised a boatload of money

**[31:25]** and can send more emails than somebody else

**[31:27]** or go to a bunch of events or whatever it is.

**[31:30]** But I actually think it's, okay,

**[31:33]** who's built to last in this market?

**[31:36]** And who is just gonna be a one-hit wonder

**[31:38]** and maybe just trying to pump up

**[31:40]** as much as they can before an exit?

**[31:43]** I'm curious, from your perspective,

**[31:46]** what are some of the old SaaS playbooks

**[31:50]** that were tried and true, they worked,

**[31:52]** it was best practice, everybody followed it.

**[31:55]** That's now completely dead.

**[31:57]** And what do you do instead?

**[31:59]** Yeah, that's a great question.

**[32:00]** I'm not sure I have a great answer for you yet.

**[32:03]** Or if there's just a few that come to mind.

**[32:05]** If there's a few that's like,

**[32:06]** "Hey, this used to be part of the utility belt

**[32:10]** of the go-to-market leader."

**[32:11]** Now you can't do that anymore.

**[32:14]** And now here's some new things you have to do.

**[32:16]** This is the new baseline that is the expectation.

## 32:19 — Your inbound lead is an order

**[32:19]** Yeah, I'll give you a couple of examples.

**[32:22]** I think the lead process

**[32:24]** is just totally turned on its ear right now.

**[32:29]** If you were a business

**[32:30]** that was dependent on inbound leads,

**[32:32]** which almost all SaaS businesses

**[32:34]** had a high dependency on inbound leads.

**[32:36]** You know, when I joined criteria,

**[32:38]** we were 96% inbound lead.

**[32:41]** Like, that's a lot.

**[32:43]** We really didn't have an outbound emotion at all.

**[32:46]** I think most SaaS businesses

**[32:47]** incorporated an outbounding motion

**[32:49]** alongside of their inbound motion.

**[32:51]** But that inbound motion has,

**[32:54]** the change in it has really accelerated.

**[32:57]** And by the time somebody's getting to you

**[32:59]** through an inbound lead,

**[33:01]** they have done all of their research.

**[33:02]** They have made a decision.

**[33:04]** Make no mistake, your rep is taking an order.

**[33:07]** They may not feel like they're taking an order,

**[33:08]** but they're taking an order.

**[33:10]** They've decided.

**[33:12]** So to get to people earlier in their process,

**[33:17]** I think makes it look like the old playbook

**[33:19]** around standard deal turn times goes out.

**[33:23]** Like, it looks insane.

**[33:25]** Because you have to start the conversation,

**[33:27]** especially at the enterprise level,

**[33:29]** way, way, way, way before they even

**[33:31]** start thinking about buying product.

**[33:34]** And when you do that, your ACVs go up,

**[33:37]** but your timeline is going to look nutty.

**[33:38]** Like, if you literally measured the timeline

**[33:41]** that I'm seeing now from where we're outbounding

**[33:43]** and making connection with people

**[33:45]** to the time we're closing them,

**[33:47]** there's like this entirely new process

**[33:51]** that's happening before they actually engage in the funnel.

**[33:56]** And one of the most effective tools

**[33:58]** that I see for this right now is events.

**[34:00]** People want to be with people.

**[34:02]** Like, I don't know, like we're having a lot of dinners,

**[34:05]** a lot of cocktail parties.

**[34:06]** I've been on the road a lot.

**[34:10]** - Yes. - But it works, right?

**[34:13]** And you're catching people

**[34:15]** before they're really even in a shopping cycle.

**[34:18]** You're just getting to know people.

**[34:21]** And then they start to think

**[34:22]** about the business problem that they have.

**[34:24]** And then you get a call,

**[34:26]** or one of your calls lands finally.

**[34:29]** So it's, I think if you measure things

**[34:32]** by the old set of standard metrics,

**[34:35]** especially on the new logo side,

**[34:37]** it's just the math is going to look out of whack right now.

**[34:41]** Because I think the motion starts to be different.

**[34:43]** Think if you look at the customer side,

**[34:45]** that's also changing.

**[34:47]** Because I think that instead of talking to their CSM

**[34:51]** or their account manager,

**[34:54]** I'm going to go spend a bunch of time

**[34:55]** in whatever GPT I'm using to do research

**[34:59]** before I ever speak to you.

**[35:01]** I'm just not talking to you anymore.

**[35:05]** This is all available to me.

**[35:06]** Why do I need to speak to you?

**[35:08]** So I just think it's getting harder and harder

**[35:10]** for the CSMs and the account managers

**[35:12]** to figure out where their point of relevance is

**[35:15]** in the conversation.

**[35:16]** And I think that's going to require a big change.

**[35:19]** And I don't exactly know what that is yet.

**[35:23]** That to me is one that I have not figured out.

## 35:27 — Showing up in the LLMs — and the Reddit strategy

**[35:27]** Yeah, and I think, so going to events,

**[35:32]** there's a couple things.

**[35:32]** You have to show up well to those.

**[35:34]** So, and figure out, be thoughtful of how you curate them.

**[35:38]** If you're going in with a partner

**[35:39]** or how you're allocating your budget towards events.

**[35:43]** And then also showing up in the LMS,

**[35:50]** there's no hacks.

**[35:51]** There's no pay to play on showing up in the LMS.

**[35:56]** You have to have content.

**[35:58]** It has to be good.

**[35:59]** It has to be relevant.

**[36:00]** It has to also have a high volume.

**[36:02]** You have to have other people talking about you.

**[36:05]** So you can't even control it.

**[36:07]** You have to invest in that part of the equation as well,

**[36:10]** whether that's customer reviews,

**[36:11]** or partners writing about you,

**[36:13]** or having a proper PR strategy.

**[36:16]** You have to do so much to maybe show up.

**[36:20]** And the thing that's probably going to decide

**[36:24]** most of our go-to-market's fate.

**[36:26]** Yeah.

**[36:28]** Yeah.

**[36:29]** In some ways, though, it, you know,

**[36:31]** that business problem you talked about

**[36:33]** where you've gone and raised a whole bunch of money.

**[36:36]** And so you can just splatter-gram the market,

**[36:38]** and therefore kind of win,

**[36:39]** even if your product's kind of crappy.

**[36:42]** I think that people who will start to rise above the noise

**[36:48]** are people who are having a thought leadership conversation

**[36:51]** in the market in general.

**[36:54]** If you're talking to the market in general,

**[36:57]** and this is a thing we encourage all sales reps,

**[37:00]** SDRs to do.

**[37:01]** If you're talking and you have a point of view,

**[37:04]** all that's getting fed into those LLMs,

**[37:07]** and that creates that discussion, right?

**[37:10]** You have to have a Reddit strategy right now.

**[37:12]** Like Reddit is like heavily weighted in LLMs.

**[37:20]** Because you can't pay to play there.

**[37:21]** You have to build organically.

**[37:23]** You have to build trust.

**[37:24]** You can't just show up and start bumping a bunch of garbage

**[37:28]** into the platform, so.

**[37:30]** But who knew?

**[37:31]** We were going to have to write so much in Reddit.

**[37:33]** Last year I didn't-- come on.

**[37:37]** No, I know.

**[37:38]** Before I don't think it was on anybody's radar.

**[37:39]** And then within the last year,

**[37:41]** it's become like the number one thing.

**[37:43]** I see people hiring full-time head of Reddit.

**[37:48]** Like not head of demand gen, not head of something,

**[37:50]** like not events.

**[37:52]** Their sole purpose is just to run the Reddit playbook.

**[37:56]** That'll work.

**[37:56]** Write a bunch of stuff on Reddit.

**[37:59]** Yeah, it's true.

**[38:01]** But I think that that kind of evolution just will continue

**[38:04]** to happen.

**[38:05]** And we're just going to have to adapt.

**[38:06]** But I think the key is to adapt.

**[38:10]** We have to observe and then be able to go.

**[38:12]** I know that metric that you're looking at looks weird

**[38:17]** or out of whack.

**[38:19]** But let me educate you on why that metric fundamentally

**[38:22]** has to change right now.

**[38:23]** And it ultimately will impact ARR in the right way

**[38:27]** or your revenue stream in the right way.

**[38:29]** But I just think that's a big shift right now.

**[38:34]** I think so too.

**[38:35]** I think so too.

**[38:36]** And I'd love to hear your perspective

**[38:40]** of maybe how we got here.

**[38:41]** Because I think sometimes knowing where we're going,

**[38:45]** it's important to think about where things have come from.

**[38:49]** Over the course of your go-to-market career,

**[38:53]** and maybe you could frame it this way,

**[38:55]** if you were to mentor somebody who's just starting out

**[38:58]** right now, maybe they're just coming out of school.

**[39:00]** They're looking for their way in.

**[39:01]** They aspire to be a CRO one day.

**[39:06]** What have you learned in your career?

**[39:07]** And what do you think is going to apply

**[39:08]** to that person moving forward?

**[39:10]** It's fascinating.

**[39:13]** I have not just been in SaaS.

**[39:15]** I've been in marketplace businesses.

**[39:17]** I've been in SaaS businesses.

**[39:19]** Lots of different industries too.

**[39:22]** And I think that the place we're coming from,

**[39:25]** like honestly, a person like me was probably harder to hire back then.

**[39:30]** Because I think that we as an industry

**[39:33]** got really enamored with specialization.

**[39:37]** And you sort of became, you're this kind of person.

**[39:39]** You're a vertical SaaS person,

**[39:43]** or you're a marketplace Airbnb kind of person,

**[39:46]** or you sort of like fall into these very specialized categories.

**[39:52]** And I think part of the play in your career up to this point

**[39:56]** has been to specialize deeply.

**[39:59]** Because when you went back out to market

**[40:01]** and you started to interact with a search firm,

**[40:03]** if they looked at your resume and they were like,

**[40:06]** I don't understand what you are.

**[40:07]** You're all over the place.

**[40:09]** That was a really negative thing.

**[40:13]** I think that's completely changed now.

**[40:18]** Fundamentally changed now.

**[40:21]** I think one of the things that AI has done,

**[40:24]** we have spent decades trying to pigeonhole ourselves

**[40:28]** into specialization.

**[40:29]** And if you look at it from a different perspective,

**[40:32]** AI has just stitched all of our specialization

**[40:35]** back together into a broad perspective.

**[40:37]** That's why it's so effective.

**[40:41]** It has all the context at the same time,

**[40:43]** which we have trained out of ourselves in the industry.

**[40:47]** We've trained it out of ourselves.

**[40:50]** So if you think about a career now,

**[40:52]** having that general broad business perspective

**[40:56]** across a variety of disciplines,

**[40:59]** a variety of approaches,

**[41:00]** actually makes you better able to interact with AI,

**[41:04]** better able to apply it,

**[41:06]** and better able to apply it in a strategic way

**[41:09]** where you're amplifying the right thing

**[41:11]** instead of just efficiency,

**[41:13]** ising everything of yesteryear to your own detriment.

**[41:19]** So I just think it's a different career strategy

**[41:21]** than we would have told somebody 20 years ago.

## 41:27 — Has it gotten better for women in GTM?

**[41:27]** Do you think the environment has changed

**[41:32]** for women in the industry since when you started?

**[41:36]** I've seen the cycles.

**[41:39]** I mean, I entered business in the late '90s, my friend.

**[41:43]** In automotive, it was not for the faint of heart.

**[41:49]** (laughing)

**[41:51]** I think, yes, I think women in those days

**[41:56]** coming up, especially in the kinds of businesses

**[41:59]** that I came up in, you had to be quite tough.

**[42:03]** I mean, you had to take a lot.

**[42:04]** You had to tolerate a lot.

**[42:07]** You had to sort of be willing to be in environments

**[42:10]** where it was really pretty, abusive and uncomfortable,

**[42:15]** and be okay not leaving.

**[42:18]** And I look at the younger me

**[42:21]** with a great deal of empathy and tenderness

**[42:24]** because I recall experiences I had

**[42:29]** while I was coming up in business

**[42:30]** where I just kept going.

**[42:32]** I was super persistent.

**[42:34]** You weren't gonna stop me, but my God,

**[42:37]** did I have to just deal with all forms

**[42:40]** of you can't even believe it.

**[42:42]** Like, you can't even believe it.

**[42:44]** It would make your head spin around.

**[42:48]** But that was the system.

**[42:49]** That was the way it was.

**[42:52]** And I think we got better.

**[42:54]** Also, I got out of automotive.

**[42:55]** I hope automotive's better now.

**[42:58]** I'm not gonna go find out.

**[42:59]** (laughing)

**[43:02]** If there's an industry that hasn't gotten better,

**[43:04]** that might be one of them.

**[43:05]** I don't know, maybe.

**[43:06]** I'd like to think we all got better.

**[43:08]** I do think it got better.

**[43:09]** I think as more women entered the business

**[43:14]** environment in general,

**[43:15]** there was a greater openness.

**[43:18]** There was a greater set of opportunities

**[43:21]** for all of us.

**[43:23]** But I recall sort of going through the cycle

**[43:25]** where the women themselves,

**[43:27]** we sort of were trying to believe

**[43:28]** there was only room for one of us in any room.

**[43:30]** So we weren't all that helpful to each other

**[43:33]** because we thought I gotta be the one.

**[43:35]** You gotta get out of here.

**[43:37]** And I think coming through that

**[43:39]** was another cycle for me in my career.

**[43:42]** And then I think where we're netting out now,

**[43:46]** it's interesting to think about it.

**[43:48]** In a lot of ways, I ran my career

**[43:52]** kind of a guyish approach.

**[43:54]** I was pretty masculine in my approaches

**[43:57]** because it worked.

**[43:59]** And I think as I've grown in my career,

**[44:02]** what I've realized is there's this whole other access point

**[44:06]** that I was just missing this other side of myself

**[44:11]** that actually made me a way more powerful leader,

**[44:14]** that made me way more well-rounded.

**[44:17]** And having that access point now

**[44:18]** and watching what's going on in the market,

**[44:21]** I think that part of that feminine access point though

**[44:25]** is why you're seeing so many women

**[44:27]** leave the system right now.

**[44:30]** Because there's sort of a, I don't know,

**[44:34]** I'm pretty smart and I'm pretty sure of it now.

**[44:36]** So I don't think I need this.

**[44:39]** And it's a disservice in a lot of ways

**[44:42]** because I don't think the men in the system,

**[44:44]** or I don't think they're conscious of it for the most part.

**[44:47]** I think it's just a system that has happened.

**[44:51]** It's just happened.

**[44:53]** And I sit in the room with all dudes most of the time

**[44:57]** and do I think that they're aware

**[45:00]** that it can be weird sometimes?

**[45:02]** I don't think they're aware at all.

**[45:04]** Like kind of not at all.

**[45:08]** So I don't think you get really mad at them.

**[45:11]** I mean, certainly there are a few guys

**[45:13]** that like they're aware and they're jerks.

**[45:15]** But I think most men are not aware at all.

**[45:19]** And I think bringing that point of education

**[45:22]** of how you can be supportive, how you can design systems,

**[45:25]** how we together can alter the system

**[45:28]** in a moment where the system needs to be altered anyway.

**[45:32]** So it's sort of a perfect opportunity in a lot of ways.

## 45:37 — Fear and intimidation vs. strength and softness

**[45:37]** Can you go back to what you were mentioning?

**[45:38]** Because I'd love to dive a little bit deeper.

**[45:40]** You said you approached your career in a masculine way

**[45:45]** and now you have a new vantage point with a feminine approach.

**[45:49]** What are some examples where,

**[45:53]** okay, this is a more masculine approach

**[45:56]** to this particular thing or problem

**[45:57]** or higher setting of your career.

**[45:59]** And this could be another feminine approach

**[46:00]** that opens up new opportunities.

**[46:03]** What are some examples of the juxtaposition

**[46:06]** of those two things?

**[46:08]** Yeah, I think I used fear and intimidation a lot

**[46:14]** earlier in my career.

**[46:16]** And I think that I can articulate it

**[46:21]** as fear and intimidation now.

**[46:23]** What it probably felt or looked like more at the time

**[46:27]** was certainty of decision and authority.

**[46:32]** But I think that the way that it was expressed,

**[46:36]** the certainty of decision and authority

**[46:38]** was expressed in a way where I need you

**[46:40]** to be a little bit afraid of me.

**[46:41]** So you move it, right?

**[46:45]** And I think that it's almost subconscious in a way.

**[46:49]** But I mean, even the way I used to dress Anthony,

**[46:51]** like I, good God, I would like,

**[46:54]** wear these big high heels and leather jackets.

**[46:57]** And like, I was designed to intimidate you.

**[47:00]** It was my whole deal.

**[47:02]** I was like, I had just made this persona that was like,

**[47:06]** let's go.

**[47:10]** Right.

**[47:10]** And that sort of willingness to fight

**[47:17]** that scrappiness, I mean, is something

**[47:21]** that I drew from my history.

**[47:23]** I understood it really well.

**[47:24]** And when I got into business and I got around

**[47:26]** how the men around me operated, I was like,

**[47:29]** oh, I know how to do this.

**[47:30]** Check.

**[47:31]** I have this cold.

**[47:33]** I can do this.

**[47:35]** But I think the result it produces

**[47:37]** is teams who are a little afraid of you,

**[47:40]** teams who are a little scared to speak up.

**[47:44]** So you don't really get collaboration.

**[47:49]** You don't really know what's going on inside your org

**[47:53]** because you're something other than them.

**[47:54]** You're above them.

**[47:55]** You're up here.

**[47:57]** And I think as I've shifted that position,

**[48:00]** one of the things I like to do is really like drop

**[48:03]** into the rep level because I like to talk to customers a lot.

**[48:08]** Like I like to talk to customers and prospects.

**[48:10]** I actually like really like to be out in the field.

**[48:14]** All the like board level stuff and the capacity planning

**[48:18]** and all the boring stuff.

**[48:19]** I know.

**[48:19]** No, being in the field is a blast.

**[48:21]** It's a blast.

**[48:22]** So but if you can get down with a rep

**[48:25]** and watch what's happening to them and really listen to them

**[48:29]** and be with them, you learn so much more

**[48:32]** about how your organization is operating

**[48:34]** that you're not going to get out of Salesforce or HubSpot or Gong.

**[48:38]** And I'm sorry, you can listen to Gong calls all day long.

**[48:41]** It is different when you're sitting with somebody

**[48:44]** listening and watching their process.

**[48:47]** There's a layer of emotion that you gather in that process

**[48:52]** that you simply can't gather from condensing Gong calls

**[48:55]** into AI summaries.

**[48:56]** You just can't do it.

**[48:58]** So I think that's the contrast for me.

**[49:01]** I think it makes a lot of sense.

**[49:04]** For me, the best management leadership training

**[49:07]** I've had is being a father because you learn that.

**[49:13]** You're like, okay, especially as they're getting older.

**[49:17]** You know, okay, I have to have boundaries,

**[49:20]** but if I overdo it, then they won't tell me the truth

**[49:23]** or they'll hide things from me.

**[49:25]** And like you have to be loving, but have a level of respect.

**[49:29]** And I think towing that line as a dad

**[49:34]** has been a really interesting experience

**[49:36]** that I always take back to work.

**[49:39]** And I think if you can get the team,

**[49:43]** I don't like calling companies like families necessarily,

**[49:47]** but I do think there's a level of trust, cooperation.

**[49:51]** And I think that has been the best training I've had.

**[49:53]** Better than any, you know, I went to business school.

**[49:56]** I had plenty of leadership trainings and all that stuff.

**[49:58]** I don't think there's anything better

**[49:59]** than trying to raise new humans.

**[50:03]** I totally agree with you.

**[50:04]** And it's funny, you know, I have four kids.

**[50:07]** Some of them are in their 20s now.

**[50:09]** My youngest one's eight.

**[50:10]** And I was never like that masculine way with my children, right?

**[50:16]** I was always like, I understood the balance in motherhood

**[50:20]** of strength and softness together.

**[50:25]** And then that was my model to bring it into business

**[50:29]** because you don't, softness is not weak.

**[50:33]** It's not weak at all.

**[50:35]** It can be quite strong if it's applied the right way.

**[50:39]** And I think that was, it's an interesting thing

**[50:41]** that you brought that up about parenting.

**[50:44]** I think that's an access point for people

**[50:47]** to really like lead with heart

**[50:49]** as opposed to like just being up here grinding

**[50:51]** in your head all the time, trying to figure it out,

**[50:52]** trying to work through it.

**[50:54]** Certainly you need to work through things,

**[50:55]** but really understanding what's going on,

**[51:00]** I think, I don't know, it like sits lower in your body.

**[51:03]** That makes a ton of sense.

**[51:05]** It makes a ton of sense,

**[51:06]** especially depends on what mission you're on.

**[51:09]** You know, I'm the founder of LeanScale.

**[51:12]** I'm here to build something to last.

**[51:13]** So I'm not coming in for a quick turnaround mission

**[51:17]** and jetting out.

**[51:18]** And maybe there's time and place for those,

**[51:21]** that type of leadership.

**[51:22]** But I think if you're building something to last

**[51:26]** and you have to win the hearts and minds of your team,

**[51:28]** make sure you have the right type of people on the team,

**[51:31]** it's a very, very challenging thing to do.

**[51:33]** Yeah.

**[51:34]** And I think, you know, it's important to note,

**[51:36]** like it doesn't mean you're a pushover, right?

**[51:38]** I'm not a-

**[51:39]** Agreed.

**[51:41]** Yeah.

**[51:41]** I think part of, you know, you said that healthy boundary,

**[51:44]** like part of the strength of it is holding people accountable

**[51:49]** and being clear about your expectations.

**[51:51]** And instead of sort of that fear of enforcement,

**[51:54]** that like creating an environment

**[51:56]** where they want to make you proud.

**[51:59]** And that's reciprocal.

**[52:01]** So I think that's exciting.

**[52:03]** I think it is too.

**[52:04]** And I think if you're going to build something special,

**[52:07]** especially as teams move around,

**[52:09]** we talked about how hard it is to hire and find the right people.

**[52:13]** But as you go through your career,

**[52:15]** and if you approach things that way,

**[52:17]** I mean, I have people here at LeanScale.

**[52:21]** I have a couple of family members.

**[52:23]** So I had to have a good childhood.

**[52:25]** I mean, it went all the way back to the beginning.

**[52:28]** I have people that I've worked with at various companies

**[52:32]** throughout my career.

**[52:33]** And you never know.

**[52:34]** You have no idea that this relationship

**[52:37]** or the respect they have for you or what you've built

**[52:40]** will actually turn into something later too.

**[52:43]** You just have no clue how those dots are going to get connected.

**[52:46]** So I do think you have to approach it every day where,

**[52:48]** yeah, you can't be a cupcake.

**[52:49]** I love the way you put it.

**[52:51]** Can't be a pushover.

**[52:53]** You have to stay strong in what you believe in.

**[52:56]** But also, you have to have grace for certain things.

**[52:58]** And then also have empathy for the people in the field

**[53:02]** and what they're doing.

**[53:02]** And be honest with if you've done a good job as a leader

**[53:06]** to set them up to be successful.

**[53:10]** I think that's right.

## 53:13 — Wrap

**[53:13]** Well, Melissa, thank you so much for just taking us

**[53:16]** through all of those aspects.

**[53:17]** There's so much changing right now.

**[53:19]** Some things that are holding true and I think

**[53:22]** are just timeless wisdom that'll go throughout any team,

**[53:26]** leadership, go to market in general.

**[53:28]** But really, it's a very interesting place we're in with AI.

**[53:31]** I think everything you talked about with hiring

**[53:34]** and how to find the right candidates,

**[53:36]** the AI echo chamber that is really going on right now

**[53:39]** is making it difficult for people to find jobs

**[53:41]** and for companies to find the right people.

**[53:43]** So I know there's new approaches we're

**[53:45]** going to have to take to solve that.

**[53:47]** Also thinking about what job descriptions you're looking for,

**[53:52]** what you're actually looking for now that people have access

**[53:54]** to some of these tools that may change what you really need

**[53:58]** people to be focused on and doing.

**[54:00]** And thank you for everything you're doing for women in GTM

**[54:04]** and being a role model, letting them see someone in the role

**[54:09]** so they can believe in it for themselves.

**[54:12]** And I know things are getting better

**[54:15]** and you've played a major part in that.

**[54:16]** So thank you.

**[54:18]** Well, thanks for having me on, Anthony. It was great.