---
title: "The Churn Nobody Tracks: Why Your Best People Leave Before They Quit"
episode: 109
podcast: "The LeanScale Podcast"
publisher: "LeanScale"
guest: "Luke Hoffmeister"
guest_title: "Revenue Operations & Sales Training"
date_published: 2026-09-02
date_modified: 2026-09-03
duration: 00:49:39
word_count: 9226
topics: ["sales-leadership", "revenue-operations", "ai-in-gtm", "sales-enablement"]
canonical_url: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/luke-hoffmeister-churn-nobody-tracks/
source: "LeanScale Knowledge Hub — https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge"
license: "Free to quote and cite with attribution to The LeanScale Podcast."
---

# The Churn Nobody Tracks: Why Your Best People Leave Before They Quit — Full Transcript

> Episode 109 of The LeanScale Podcast, with Luke Hoffmeister.
> Published September 2, 2026 · 00:49:39 · 9226 words.
> Machine-transcribed and **not diarized** — speaker attribution is inferred, so verify
> attribution against the audio before quoting a specific person.
> Structured breakdown: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/luke-hoffmeister-churn-nobody-tracks/

## 00:00 — Cold open + intro

**[0:00]** At the end of the day, what kind of a company do you want to be, and if it's all about making money, well, Wall Street's full of those, like just go be one of those.

**[0:07]** But if you're really about customer service and you're really about filling a need and you really want to have that method, then you have to be that.

**[0:16]** My guest today is Luke Hofmeister who runs revenue operations at Halo's body cameras.

**[0:23]** You have to follow through, do what you say, and if you're a company that says, "Hey, we don't care about culture, it's about this, this is our bottom line,"

**[0:29]** then at least have cards on the table that people know what they're dealing with. I think it's the uncertainty.

**[0:33]** I want to get into a little bit of your eclectic go-to-market background.

**[0:39]** Your path has zigzagged a little bit across customer success, sales engineering, RevOps, sales training.

**[0:46]** You've kind of done a little bit of everything on the go-to-market side.

**[0:50]** What feels like the through line that felt consistent across any of those roles you were in?

**[0:57]** I think it's been a customer mindset and a curiosity.

**[1:02]** On the one hand, it's sort of a service mentality.

**[1:06]** How do we reach the customer?

**[1:17]** Luke, you've said the biggest problem in most businesses is a kind of churn.

**[1:21]** Nobody is tracking the internal, silent kind.

**[1:24]** When did you first see that play out in a way that convinced you it mattered more than the stuff we usually measure?

**[1:32]** I think the first time I saw that was when I moved from a lot of field work,

**[1:37]** which included a lot of install service and a little bit of sales into an account management type of role.

**[1:44]** It was like this regional management, such account manager sales,

**[1:49]** and I was responsible for hiring a bunch of people.

**[1:51]** It's a recruiter on the one hand, a manager on the other, a trainer was another piece of that.

**[1:56]** It's kind of a multifaceted role.

**[2:00]** It played directly on some strengths that I had.

**[2:02]** I was coming from the field, I knew the product, I knew how to train these guys.

## 02:04 — The churn nobody tracks: internal, silent attrition

**[2:07]** We would have clients come to us that they want a very competitive rate.

**[2:13]** And the moment that we found a client who was willing to pay more, that person who had not been available for a year or two years,

**[2:22]** suddenly they're like, "Yeah, I'm going to move right now."

**[2:25]** And it wasn't that much. This is field work, it's skilled trade.

**[2:30]** So they were moving.

**[2:33]** And a company that thought, "Oh, we have loyalty, we have culture, we have these things going for us,"

**[2:37]** would suddenly lose a very valuable lead employee, could be supervisor, could be tech,

**[2:42]** could be regional manager, anything that our clients needed we would hire for.

**[2:46]** And the moment that we offered them something a little bit better financially, they were gone.

**[2:50]** And that's kind of the easy one, the finance one, but it's a big one.

**[2:54]** Yeah, and these are critical roles.

**[2:56]** I know here at LeanScale, anyone, we're comprised of architects and engineers,

**[3:01]** or managing engagements for clients.

**[3:03]** When we lose someone, it's pretty critical.

**[3:06]** It's not just the open spot that they held and the capacity that they managed,

**[3:11]** but it's also their institutional knowledge.

**[3:14]** It's the ripple effect of, "Oh, why is that person leaving?

**[3:18]** Oh, should I be thinking about leaving? Is the grass greener on the other side?"

**[3:23]** So I think there's a lot of cases where, hey, somebody leaving,

**[3:29]** that's just the tip of the iceberg of the effects that it can have,

**[3:33]** and probably just the beginning of some underlying systemic issues too.

**[3:37]** Yeah, yeah, I see the same thing.

## 03:42 — Losing a critical role: the ripple and the institutional knowledge

**[3:42]** So something like this, I think, is pretty difficult to track.

**[3:47]** In your opinion, what's the best way to keep your finger on the pulse

**[3:51]** of how the talent is doing and identify any early signs of attrition?

**[3:57]** The risk of sounding Pollyanna, it's not rocket science.

**[4:02]** It's good communication, it's following through.

**[4:06]** And what we mean by that is most companies that I've ever worked for,

**[4:12]** that I've ever been a part of, talk about having a culture.

**[4:17]** And they want one, and maybe even mean to.

**[4:21]** But you have to follow through.

**[4:23]** There's a lot to do, and it's really tough.

**[4:25]** So it's not a, "They're not doing a good job" thing as much as it's,

**[4:30]** "What do you have to pay attention to?"

**[4:32]** What is supposed to be, or would be helpful to be, a very high priority.

**[4:39]** And that is, you've got to listen to your team.

**[4:42]** You've got to know what's going on.

**[4:44]** One of the challenges of owning a company and the more leadership-oriented you get,

## 04:45 — How to keep a finger on the pulse: listen, let people vent

**[4:49]** you have these defenses, and you sort of have to build your team around you.

**[4:53]** But you have to know that that also insulates you.

**[4:56]** And it's not that you need snitches from your workforce,

**[5:01]** because that has its own sort of, like, poison or cancer-right effect.

**[5:05]** But you do need people that are going to tell you like it is.

**[5:08]** And you have to promote that.

**[5:10]** So you have to let people vent.

**[5:12]** You have to let them be a little bit unconventional.

**[5:14]** And you have to see the value in that.

**[5:16]** I mean, sometimes they're going to say, "You're an ass of a boss," right?

**[5:19]** And you're like, "Well, that's not HR approved."

**[5:21]** But they're telling you something, right?

**[5:23]** So it's listening.

**[5:26]** And then they're going to tell you, when it's safe to do so,

**[5:28]** they're going to tell you about, "Hey, I think our product is failing over here."

**[5:31]** Or, "Hey, sales keep selling in this way, and it's hurting us."

**[5:34]** Or, "That's adding more work on my team."

**[5:38]** Again, it's hard as an executive, or even as a mid-manager,

**[5:44]** to prioritize those things, because they seem to just get in the way.

**[5:49]** And you want to just quiet the noise and go about your business.

**[5:52]** But those are the things that matter much more long-term.

**[5:57]** Because those are your people, and they're the biggest piece of the business.

**[6:01]** And they're the ones talking to your customers, right?

**[6:04]** Your support team's talking to your clients all the time.

**[6:06]** Your sales team is talking to your clients all the time.

**[6:08]** And when they start to feel like there's no place for them at the company anymore,

**[6:13]** look, they're already gone. It's just a matter of time.

**[6:16]** And I've seen that happen with myself, right?

**[6:19]** Where multiple times, I'm like, "Okay, the value's done. It's time to move on."

**[6:24]** I might still be there for quite a while, right?

**[6:27]** Opportunities only come when they come.

**[6:29]** But it's absolutely the same for the people that I've worked with, too.

**[6:32]** And the sales reps that we had, we couldn't offer them much.

**[6:35]** I was over at a security company. Great little company.

**[6:38]** They cared a lot about service. They cared a lot about their customers.

**[6:41]** But they didn't care so much about their people.

**[6:44]** And they also promoted a big, "Yeah, let's have culture. Let's have fun. Let's have engagement."

**[6:49]** And it came off as awkward, right?

**[6:51]** So people know I'm awkward on podcasts for the first time.

## 06:52 — "They're already gone": when someone checks out before they quit

**[6:56]** I'm awkward on interviews.

**[6:58]** But people know if I'm genuine or not.

**[7:01]** So if I have a canned response for everything,

**[7:04]** that's not going to promote that level of, right?

**[7:07]** So it's all of these things kind of against the middle.

**[7:11]** They can show up on reports, if you want to look at it that way.

**[7:15]** But I think it's engagement, right?

**[7:17]** You have to follow through, do what you say.

**[7:19]** And if you're a company that says, "Hey, we don't care about culture.

**[7:22]** It's about this. This is our bottom line."

**[7:24]** Then at least have cards on the table, let people know what they're dealing with.

**[7:27]** I think it's the uncertainty mixed with,

**[7:30]** "We're not communicating properly to our teams.

**[7:33]** And we're not keeping our word that eats at things most."

**[7:36]** And then there's a big one.

**[7:37]** "We don't want to talk about money."

**[7:39]** But the truth is, large part of the workforce is lower to middle class.

**[7:46]** That's our workforce. Those are our people.

**[7:48]** And then you have higher and higher right and engineers paid more and more.

**[7:51]** But even then, they're still really middle class.

**[7:54]** And ultimately, what drives that?

**[7:56]** If you offer me, let's take it outside of ourselves,

**[8:00]** I offer somebody 20% more to work for me.

**[8:03]** That's not that much in the grand scheme.

**[8:05]** Especially, say, they make 40 a year, 60 a year.

**[8:08]** That's not all that much.

**[8:10]** Now, finance is going to argue because every dollar in cent from the finance team is like,

**[8:14]** "But in the grand business scheme, what does that matter in the market?"

**[8:17]** But to that person, it's life changing.

**[8:19]** To the person who's been working their two, three years

**[8:22]** and there's no structure whatsoever around raises or bonuses

**[8:26]** or what meeting expectations means for them financially,

**[8:29]** that's already churn.

**[8:31]** They're already looking.

**[8:33]** And it's just a matter of time and opportunity.

**[8:36]** And I think it's easy in sort of a down market

**[8:39]** where it's sort of the employer market to ignore those things.

**[8:43]** Because you're like, "No one's doing this. We don't have to worry.

**[8:46]** We have tons of people in the workforce. People are clamoring for this job."

**[8:49]** Well, the markets always turn around and then you see it more.

**[8:52]** And then suddenly you have to pay more and you do.

**[8:55]** Or you could keep people that you have, keep your institutional knowledge,

**[8:59]** keep your customers happy, which by the way affects your revenue

**[9:02]** and affects your churn on your customers.

**[9:05]** That's the way I look at it.

**[9:07]** It's a very connected sort of a mindset, but it's tough to do.

**[9:10]** You have to be people minded.

## 09:11 — The money conversation: 20% is life-changing

**[9:13]** Yeah, a couple of things to break down. One, I want to start on the pay.

**[9:18]** One of the examples that you might look at,

**[9:22]** one that maybe people can relate to, fast food restaurants,

**[9:26]** In-N-Out and Chick-fil-A.

**[9:29]** They're two that pay well above market rate for the rolls

**[9:34]** and well above everybody else.

**[9:37]** And I think it's pretty apparent when you walk into one of those stores,

**[9:42]** the difference.

**[9:44]** The people are smiling, they're well trained, they're more engaged.

**[9:48]** They've probably been working there for a longer time.

**[9:52]** And in the long run, not needing to constantly recruit new people,

**[9:56]** constantly train new people,

**[9:59]** reinvigorating a whole new person on the organization.

**[10:03]** I mean, those have real costs.

## 10:05 — You get what you pay for: In-N-Out and Chick-fil-A

**[10:06]** So if you can kind of maintain some of that with just,

**[10:10]** hey, let's pay above market rate, it's a pretty simple fix.

**[10:14]** I want to spend a little bit of time.

**[10:18]** What does culture mean to you and how do you build it?

**[10:22]** Yeah, God, that's tough.

**[10:25]** It's a really good question.

**[10:31]** I think there's a bit of self-awareness.

**[10:34]** My self-awareness is, I talk too damn much.

**[10:37]** I go on a diet drive.

**[10:41]** But I'm aware of it. I'm working on it.

**[10:45]** You know, I think if somebody's aware of what they want to build,

**[10:49]** and I think the earlier you institute some sort of boundaries for yourself.

**[10:54]** The company that I'm building right now,

**[10:58]** it's going to take off in the market because there's just this big push.

## 11:04 — What culture actually is (and isn't)

**[11:04]** It's sort of hard to explain.

**[11:07]** People need it. There's a big gap. No one's doing it.

**[11:11]** It's so weird to talk about that in a market,

**[11:14]** especially finance or self-help or whatever you're getting into.

**[11:19]** Everything seems so saturated.

**[11:22]** But the reason that I'm getting into it is to fill the need.

**[11:28]** Yes, I'm there to feed my family.

**[11:30]** Yes, I'm there to do well financially.

**[11:32]** And yes, if we're successful, let's make all the big money.

**[11:35]** Let's make that crazy money, right? Sure, of course.

**[11:38]** But not at the cost of forgetting why we're doing this in the first place.

**[11:42]** And I think that's easy to miss real fast, right?

**[11:46]** If it's a small business, you're self-funded,

**[11:49]** you have this one to three year mark where you've got to survive.

**[11:53]** Like, are we going to be able to pay the bills next month?

**[11:55]** Is the business going to close the stores?

**[11:57]** Are we going to be one of the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of businesses

**[12:01]** that close their doors all the time?

**[12:03]** Happens all the time, right?

**[12:04]** Small business churn is huge.

**[12:07]** Or ending, not churn, you know what I mean?

**[12:11]** Yeah, yeah.

**[12:12]** No, no, the stats are really going against you.

**[12:14]** I remember when I started Lean Scale in 2021, I was like,

**[12:17]** "Hey, what's the odds that businesses make it past three years?"

**[12:20]** And it's pretty much no one.

**[12:22]** It's nil.

**[12:23]** Yeah, exactly.

**[12:24]** So I have to constantly...

**[12:26]** It's humbling to remember that while it's been so fun

**[12:29]** to be able to do what I'm able to do, it might end tomorrow, right?

**[12:33]** We could run out of the money that we have for this.

**[12:35]** We could have a family emergency.

**[12:36]** Those things, the real things that affect a small business.

**[12:39]** But if we survive and if we get through this

**[12:42]** and we get to go to market and we get to have profitability

**[12:45]** and we get to really get to our customers,

**[12:47]** what was the whole point of what we built?

**[12:49]** That starts the culture.

**[12:51]** And then it's communicating that.

**[12:53]** And for me, I'm a talker, but I'm a poor communicator.

**[12:57]** Something my wife constantly reminds me of.

**[12:59]** Everyone should have a wife.

**[13:01]** Whatever that looks like for somebody.

**[13:03]** You gotta have somebody that keeps you in check, right?

**[13:05]** And she's amazing, by the way.

**[13:07]** My wife is wonderful, but she likes to call me out on my shit.

**[13:10]** And it's good.

**[13:12]** And so for me, I write that down.

**[13:14]** So I'll dictate a ton to AI, chat and GBT, or similar.

**[13:18]** And then I'll go put this into something that I can reference

**[13:22]** and read because when somebody asks me for something,

**[13:25]** I can't give them a story, I can't give them a diatribe.

**[13:28]** It has to be some kind of a memo,

**[13:30]** but it has to point back to what we're about, right?

**[13:33]** We're not a charity, we're not funded by outside, right?

**[13:36]** There does have to be a money-making portion.

**[13:38]** There is a sales and marketing portion.

**[13:40]** There's a real finance portion.

**[13:42]** But I go into this with what I need.

**[13:47]** And I don't need a lot.

**[13:49]** I need more than I have now, right?

**[13:51]** I've got growing kids, I've got family, right?

**[13:53]** It has those things, and I have once.

**[13:55]** I'm not gonna lie, I love the shiny things.

**[13:57]** I do, right?

**[13:59]** But it's what I need.

**[14:02]** And so if I keep that mindset and I put that into my documents

**[14:05]** to remind me, I've at least got a shot.

**[14:08]** The more people I bring on board, the more the team grows,

**[14:11]** the more complex it becomes.

**[14:13]** The harder it is to maintain that, and it happens with every business.

**[14:15]** I mean, the company doesn't get past more than 30 people,

**[14:18]** and all of a sudden they're a bureaucracy, right?

**[14:20]** It happens, and then you get your massive grocery chains of the world,

**[14:23]** you know what I'm talking about.

**[14:25]** And you can't even imagine what it was like when the founder was alive, right?

**[14:29]** It's so far removed from what it was.

**[14:31]** So I think it's just something that's very intentional, and it's tough.

**[14:35]** And I think you really should write it down.

**[14:37]** I know it's cliche, but you should put it on the walls.

**[14:40]** Put it on a tattoo if you have to.

**[14:42]** Do you have any companies that you think emulate

**[14:45]** building and maintaining a strong culture really well?

**[14:49]** That you think others should maybe model off of or take notes of?

**[14:54]** I mean, you mentioned a couple.

**[14:56]** So Chick-fil-A is kind of funny

**[14:59]** because they have all the words that they say,

**[15:01]** and it's kind of like, "Oh, the Chick-fil-A way," right?

**[15:04]** And somebody who's been there three months almost has, like, PTSD from the Chick-fil-A way.

**[15:08]** My pleasure.

**[15:10]** Exactly, exactly.

**[15:12]** Even though I know it's a thing, somebody being nice to me and smiling,

**[15:15]** even if they're putting on a show, because they've got their own problems.

**[15:18]** And let's be--you know, I worked fast food.

**[15:21]** It sucks.

**[15:23]** It's not a great job.

**[15:25]** I think Chick-fil-A in and out and others probably do the best they can

**[15:30]** at making it suck the least, right?

**[15:32]** You've got to deal with people all day who are hungry.

## 15:34 — Companies that model culture

**[15:34]** That means they're already assholes.

**[15:37]** I don't know if I can say that on your show.

**[15:38]** They're already jerks, right?

**[15:40]** If I'm hungry, I'm probably not being my best self.

**[15:43]** I don't mean to be, but I'm hungry.

**[15:45]** And I just waited in line because your food's so good

**[15:48]** and your service is so consistently right for a reasonable price

**[15:53]** that I'm coming back and I'm waiting through the line.

**[15:56]** That's tough to deal with by itself.

**[15:58]** Don't even get started on the job itself.

**[16:00]** All the things you have to do.

**[16:02]** I think they do a good job.

**[16:04]** I'll mention another company, though, outside the fast food.

**[16:06]** It's a little more relatable.

**[16:07]** I worked for a tech company called Series.

**[16:09]** And long story short, it didn't work out.

**[16:12]** The market had a direction, the market had a different direction.

**[16:15]** They tried yet again to go back and do it differently.

**[16:17]** The company ended up being dissolved.

**[16:20]** I got a ton of respect for them.

**[16:22]** But something they did well, and I still go,

**[16:24]** "Man, do I know how they did it?"

**[16:27]** Their culture there was so good.

**[16:29]** Everyone I talked to from that company,

**[16:31]** they closed their doors at Series over two years ago.

**[16:36]** And everyone was laid off except for the core

**[16:39]** of three or four founding member team.

**[16:42]** Everyone misses it.

**[16:44]** Everyone I talked to, the head engineer,

**[16:46]** the support people, the product people,

**[16:49]** the customer success people, operations, they all miss it.

**[16:53]** There was just something there that created,

**[16:57]** as close to a family as you can get in business,

**[16:59]** I don't like the family word because it's kind of cliche

**[17:02]** and it's like, "Let's be real.

**[17:03]** We're here for the money.

**[17:04]** Let's be honest."

**[17:05]** But how do we make that as good as possible?

**[17:07]** How do we be as kind as possible

**[17:10]** and as honest as possible at the same time?

**[17:13]** And I'll throw one more out there that is a good guideline.

**[17:16]** I think Gary Vaynerchuk has a lot of good stuff on this.

**[17:18]** I know he's a controversial figure.

**[17:20]** I know he's a multimillionaire guy.

**[17:21]** He's a big personality type.

**[17:23]** It's kind of a great story.

**[17:25]** I love his story.

**[17:27]** I love where he comes from.

**[17:28]** And I think that the stuff that he does,

**[17:32]** somebody who's experienced enough to know that,

**[17:34]** his sort of side hustles that he talks about all the time,

**[17:37]** that's just for fun.

**[17:38]** He's not about, "You need to do this NFT thing.

**[17:41]** You need to do this other stuff."

**[17:42]** That's his fun.

**[17:43]** And he'll say it if you listen to him long enough.

**[17:45]** But he talks over and over about how he invests in people.

**[17:48]** And he's like, "People make fun of me for this,

**[17:50]** but it's worked for me."

**[17:52]** And I built this sort of tight-knit organization

**[17:54]** and he's not perfect.

**[17:55]** And he'll say some of his stories that he fired somebody

**[17:58]** probably when he should have been a little more attentive to their needs

**[18:01]** or he let somebody go for too long

**[18:03]** and kind of walked all over him.

**[18:04]** Everyone's going to go through that.

**[18:06]** But they've built something that has lasted.

**[18:10]** And they're this multi-mega advertising company.

**[18:15]** So I look to people like that.

**[18:18]** I look to Chick-fil-A.

**[18:20]** I'll mention another one that's super common to everyone.

**[18:22]** Bucky's.

**[18:23]** My wife hates it because there's always so many people.

**[18:26]** But I'm like, "Dude, I will put up with a few things that I don't like."

**[18:30]** Honestly, I don't know why they make them yell about the meat they have on the board.

**[18:34]** It's the most annoying thing ever.

**[18:35]** And I can't imagine being an employee.

**[18:36]** They're yelling about meat all day.

**[18:38]** Every five or ten minutes, there's meat on the board.

**[18:40]** Like, "What the heck, man?"

**[18:43]** But bathrooms are clean.

**[18:46]** Twenty-two bucks an hour to clean a bathroom.

**[18:49]** Try that at McDonald's.

**[18:51]** And McDonald's, I didn't know this.

**[18:54]** Learning more about the history of McDonald's in its earlier days,

**[18:57]** they used to be known for their clean bathrooms.

**[19:01]** And the old saying, "As with the bathroom goes the kitchen," right?

**[19:05]** That we just sort of naturally get.

**[19:06]** We don't really say that anymore.

**[19:08]** But we kind of understand it.

**[19:10]** The more you see that people don't care, then you're like,

**[19:12]** "Yeah, do I really want to come here anymore?"

**[19:14]** "Oh, yeah, right. I can afford McDonald's, so I guess I'm going to go to McDonald's."

**[19:17]** I get that.

**[19:19]** I get that a lot.

**[19:21]** But Bucky says people coming back who, from all over,

**[19:25]** all walks of life, all different industries, all backgrounds,

**[19:28]** because they have the infrastructure to support it, which takes a lot.

**[19:32]** They have a ton of coordination.

**[19:34]** And then, you know, when they have their down days, you walk in,

**[19:36]** you're like, "Oh, my God, there's toilet paper on the floor.

**[19:38]** What's going on with their workers?"

**[19:40]** And it's a rare event.

**[19:42]** You're like, "Bucky's must be having a bad day."

**[19:44]** Whereas other restaurants, I'm like, "Oh, yeah,

**[19:46]** I hate going to the bathroom anywhere but home."

**[19:48]** And I try and hold it because nobody cares.

**[19:50]** And that nobody cares cycles right back to that attrition we talked about.

**[19:54]** Right, right.

**[19:56]** And I think it ends up turning into a doom loop for the organization.

**[20:00]** So I think one thing, and people, this is a little bit more common now,

**[20:05]** but I think there was a time where it was like,

**[20:07]** "Oh, culture meant the holiday parties.

**[20:10]** Culture meant the snacks in the office.

**[20:12]** Culture meant, like, kind of perks and stuff."

**[20:14]** And I think the way you framed it in the beginning is,

**[20:17]** "Hey, find out what that core is.

**[20:20]** What's the why behind the company existing in the first place?

**[20:24]** What's the purpose?

**[20:26]** And do we take it seriously?"

**[20:28]** And I also don't like family.

**[20:31]** I don't think family is the right metaphor,

**[20:33]** but I do think, like, a professional sports team,

**[20:36]** like, your business should operate like a professional sports team.

**[20:39]** Hey, we have standards.

**[20:41]** And yes, we have a high level of trust,

**[20:44]** and we're on the same team.

**[20:46]** Like, I'm not out to get you.

## 20:47 — The doom loop and the professional-sports-team model

**[20:48]** I'm not out to make you look bad out on the field.

**[20:50]** I'm out to go beat the market.

**[20:52]** I'm out to go beat the other team.

**[20:54]** And if you're here to help me, great.

**[20:56]** Some things that tend to reinforce it are,

**[20:58]** I call them sacred rituals.

**[21:00]** So, like, at Lean Scale, we have a few things.

**[21:03]** We have a monthly company, All Hands.

**[21:05]** Lots of stuff happens there.

**[21:07]** It's where we just remind ourselves of who we are.

**[21:10]** We go over the mission and the vision again.

**[21:12]** We go over, like, what's working, what's not working.

**[21:14]** Honest conversations in front of the team that exhibit our values.

**[21:18]** And those rituals can really, really help.

**[21:22]** So, yeah, I think in terms of culture,

**[21:25]** there's a lot to invest in that can help retain your team.

**[21:30]** But a lot of it just comes with taking what you do seriously.

**[21:33]** It does.

**[21:34]** And I'll flip that script just a little bit,

**[21:36]** because I've lived the other side of that,

**[21:38]** where, like you said, I think the difference is getting it.

**[21:42]** And that sounds a little weird, right?

**[21:44]** How do we explain that?

**[21:45]** Well, the difference is, say the purpose of the All Hands,

**[21:49]** you're like, hey, I want to go in,

**[21:51]** and yes, I want to rally my team.

**[21:53]** And yes, we want to make money.

**[21:55]** And yes, we want to outdo ourselves, right?

**[21:57]** But those are a given.

**[21:58]** Nobody's actually questioning those things.

**[22:00]** If I go to work, I'm not actually going,

**[22:03]** oh man, I think we're becoming a charity that doesn't give,

**[22:06]** that doesn't care about my work, and I don't have to perform.

**[22:09]** Not even close, man.

**[22:11]** Anyone, you sort of have these basic things

**[22:14]** you don't have to do.

**[22:16]** I've lived where companies use the get-togethers,

**[22:20]** and they use the All Hands, and they use,

**[22:23]** and actually, you know, Siri's,

**[22:25]** I'm not going to harsh on them too much, right?

**[22:27]** I loved them to death, right?

**[22:28]** They taught me so much about what a company could be.

## 22:29 — The honest all-hands: don't discipline, don't fake the pep rally

**[22:31]** And then other decisions sort of affected them.

**[22:33]** But they also sort of fell into, when things were going bad,

**[22:37]** now the All Hands turn into a little more of a,

**[22:40]** like a slap your hand, you naughty employee, sort of a session.

**[22:43]** Versus, let's come at this with honesty.

**[22:45]** Let's say what we did well in the field,

**[22:47]** what we did well at leadership, and what didn't work.

**[22:50]** They had a favorite saying that they liked.

**[22:52]** It was like, call the baby ugly, right?

**[22:54]** And you think about that, and you go,

**[22:56]** who calls babies ugly?

**[22:57]** That's so horrible.

**[22:58]** But it's like, oh, my precious little thing that I built.

**[23:01]** Well, if it's super bad for the market,

**[23:03]** or really bad for morale, or just plain doesn't work,

**[23:07]** call the baby ugly.

**[23:09]** Like, let's get rid of sunk costs.

**[23:10]** And they did that really well.

**[23:12]** But I think the All Hands, again, have to be intentional.

**[23:16]** And the companies that emulate that,

**[23:18]** I worked at companies where they had lunch every single week.

**[23:21]** There were snacks in the business the whole time.

**[23:23]** And I hated working there.

**[23:25]** I hated working for the owner.

**[23:27]** I hated working for that company.

**[23:28]** I'll leave them nameless because I'm being, you know,

**[23:30]** kind of vehement about it.

**[23:33]** But it really, the culture sucked.

**[23:36]** The pay was super below the market, right?

**[23:38]** And there were always arguments about, oh, we're very competitive.

**[23:42]** We're very nice.

**[23:43]** We're number one in this or that.

**[23:45]** And it's like, yeah, but it really sucks working here.

**[23:49]** You know, and then you want people to do more with less.

**[23:53]** It's like, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

**[23:57]** And I think leaders have to give the most.

**[23:59]** It doesn't mean they have to have, like,

**[24:01]** a really crappy salary or a bad lifestyle.

**[24:04]** I think anyone who's kind of reasonable goes,

**[24:06]** yeah, I'd expect the owner to, you know, say you're into nice cars.

**[24:09]** Okay.

**[24:10]** I know a guy in an industry that I supported.

**[24:13]** His whole thing is collecting cars.

**[24:15]** And I think it's the coolest thing ever.

**[24:17]** Am I jealous of him?

**[24:18]** A little bit.

**[24:19]** But for the most part, I just think it's freaking cool that he owns two fire trucks.

**[24:22]** I mean, who owns two fire trucks?

**[24:24]** That's cool as shit, right?

**[24:26]** But if there's nothing there for the employee,

**[24:31]** but, hey, we do lunch for you every week, you should be grateful.

**[24:33]** Oh, we do a crawfish boil every quarter or once a year,

**[24:36]** or we do these company parties.

**[24:38]** Nobody cares.

**[24:40]** You know what I'd rather have than the ham and the whole package at Christmas time?

**[24:44]** Send me a $20 gift card.

**[24:46]** Like, if you're going to send me a card,

**[24:48]** you know what my family could use at Christmas time?

**[24:50]** A little more cash, just straight up.

## 24:53 — Don't send the blank Christmas card: mean it or don't

**[24:53]** I don't care if it's Amazon.

**[24:54]** I don't care if it's a thing to a restaurant,

**[24:56]** though anything that's more cash and more spendable is a little easier.

**[24:59]** If you're going to send something, mean it.

**[25:02]** Don't send a card that's blank.

**[25:04]** We don't care about the company Christmas feelings, right?

**[25:09]** We have our own family, our own feelings,

**[25:11]** and if you're a genuine person, then I want you in my life,

**[25:14]** whether I work with you or not.

**[25:15]** But if you're just trying to send out cards because it's all about culture,

**[25:18]** and then all finance can see is what we spent $3,000 just on cards alone,

**[25:23]** like, you're missing it.

**[25:24]** You're straight missing it.

**[25:25]** Don't send the cards.

**[25:26]** Don't even pretend like you care about Christmas

**[25:28]** or some holiday or some sort of thing

**[25:30]** that you're trying to promote with your employees.

**[25:31]** Because you don't.

**[25:32]** I think, so wrapping all that back up, you have to be that.

**[25:37]** You have to live that.

**[25:39]** And if you're not that, like, I'm not a great speaker,

**[25:43]** well, then I have to own it, and I have to keep practicing that, right?

**[25:49]** Okay, I'm not good with employees because back in my day,

**[25:53]** you were lucky you had a job.

**[25:55]** Okay, I have to own that, and then I need somebody to be my cushion.

**[25:59]** If I get up and speak at all of our all hands,

**[26:02]** then our employees, because I'm the top guy,

**[26:05]** are only going to hear, "This company does not care about you.

**[26:09]** Get your ass to work. You better be lucky you have a job."

**[26:12]** So a little bit of self-awareness, just a little bit of humility that goes,

**[26:15]** "I don't have to change me. I can still believe that.

**[26:17]** I can still believe you have to be lucky you even have a job here.

**[26:20]** You're lucky I even hired you."

**[26:22]** I can believe that, but I better be self-aware enough for my company's sake

**[26:27]** and my team's sake to know that's probably not the person I want to speak in the meetings.

**[26:31]** I'm going to vent to my leadership team, or I'm going to vent to my wife,

**[26:34]** or I'm going to vent to my AI, or my therapist, or whoever,

**[26:37]** and have all those beliefs, but it doesn't work well in a company.

**[26:40]** So there's a pragmatist side to it as well.

**[26:42]** Does it work well? Does it promote things?

**[26:44]** Does it help increase the bottom line, or does it not?

**[26:47]** So it works for a variety of people.

**[26:49]** I tend to live those things. I tend to believe them.

**[26:53]** But I also tend to stay in a damaging sort of a business relationship too long.

**[26:58]** So I'm the other way.

**[27:00]** I got to learn better boundaries.

**[27:03]** Yeah, it's definitely a delicate thing to manage.

**[27:06]** You want to have authenticity in the way you approach culture,

**[27:10]** that way you're bringing people along an authentic mission that you're all going towards,

**[27:16]** and then making sure you're reinforcing it.

**[27:19]** But yeah, we use the all hands as an example.

## 27:20 — Self-awareness and needing a cushion as a leader

**[27:23]** Hey, don't turn it into a disciplinary session,

**[27:31]** or don't turn it into a fake pep rally when things aren't going well

**[27:35]** and you're trying to put deodorant over something.

**[27:38]** Living in the middle of that is tough, but that's the goal.

**[27:42]** Well, and also in all the little ways in every meeting,

**[27:45]** having values, codifier values, when you're making decisions, point to the values before you make a decision, things like that.

**[27:50]** I think that's how you can help maintain culture.

**[27:54]** I want to get into a little bit of your eclectic go-to-market background.

**[28:00]** So your path has zigzagged a little bit across customer success, sales engineering, rev-ups, sales training.

**[28:07]** You've kind of done a little bit of everything on the go-to-market side.

**[28:12]** What feels like the through line that felt consistent across any of those roles you were in?

**[28:19]** Man, it's always a tough answer, and it makes interviews tough too.

**[28:26]** But I think it's been a customer mindset and a curiosity.

**[28:35]** On the one hand, it's sort of a service mentality.

## 28:37 — The eclectic GTM background: the through-line

**[28:39]** How do we reach the customer? But that can go too far as well, right?

**[28:42]** The customer is always right on the one hand, and on the other hand, that could be entirely wrong.

**[28:48]** If we give this way or build this feature that way, or change our model, and we drop our prices just because we want to be better for us,

**[28:56]** that can really hurt us in a variety of ways.

**[28:59]** So I don't mean over the edge, but it's sort of knowing where the limits are and everything.

**[29:08]** And then I am curious. I'm curious what makes a company tick.

**[29:11]** I'm curious why leaders make their decisions that they make.

**[29:14]** I'm curious why I make the decisions that I make that are usually invisible to me.

**[29:18]** And I also want to know how things work, right?

**[29:22]** I want to know why an engineer thinks the way that they do, right?

**[29:26]** Now that I'm having to do that job in my own company, I'm like, "Oh my God, I get why they do."

**[29:33]** And I've become, in my speech, much more engineer-coded, I think, than I've ever been before.

**[29:40]** And my wife goes, "You talk like an engineer all the time. Stop."

**[29:44]** But it's because you live that life, right? And it makes sense.

**[29:47]** And so what I've lived in there, bringing it back to practical, I've had good opportunities.

**[29:55]** Even at the companies that I didn't like, there were people there that I really did.

**[30:02]** And my mind always goes back to the people.

**[30:05]** So there were people that were sideways in me, people that reported in me, people that were way the heck above me,

**[30:10]** that were really good people.

**[30:12]** And I think, I'm going to answer sort of a previous question you maybe didn't ask.

**[30:17]** That's honestly what saves a lot of these organizations.

**[30:20]** They did at least a good enough job at hiring enough good people that sort of all the bad is counterbalanced

**[30:28]** because you have people that genuinely care in spite of the lack of support for them being a genuine business person.

**[30:38]** And so for me, being able to work with those people and be able to work across departments, it was what was needed.

**[30:45]** We'd already tried the standard support way, right?

**[30:47]** They'd already tried the sales way.

**[30:49]** They'd already tried all the ways that a business typically does, and then they hired a personality.

**[30:56]** I hire that way, I hire people that I trust, and I hire a personality because I want to know the potential somebody has.

**[31:03]** If they've already done it and I just can't help it, I have to have somebody who's done it before,

**[31:08]** then yeah, I'm going to have to have the experience more than probably anything.

**[31:12]** But I'm going to try and balance it out.

**[31:14]** But if I can at all have a little bit of runway, I hire a personality because the personality is going to say,

**[31:21]** "Okay, I may not have done this before, and so I'm probably going to do it wrong based on the role, but I see more.

**[31:28]** I'm open-minded to more and I do more."

**[31:31]** And back to culture, culture has to be promoting that, right?

**[31:37]** The boss has to make the decision, right?

**[31:39]** You can't say, "Oh, yeah, we're going to do it your way because you said so because I love culture."

**[31:42]** No, the boss has to make the calls.

**[31:44]** Everybody has to know that.

**[31:45]** But you have to keep promoting people being curious, people working outside their zones,

**[31:52]** because the bottom line that affected why I did what I did for years was many -- let's see.

**[32:01]** I'll try and be conservative with the number.

**[32:03]** Eight digits in ARR.

**[32:05]** Let's just put it that way.

**[32:06]** I think it was actually a lot more, but let's be conservative, right?

**[32:09]** Eight digits in ARR is what I brought in.

**[32:13]** And then there was potential for that much more because I said, "What's the problem?

**[32:18]** Where does it live?

**[32:19]** Who owns it?

**[32:20]** How do we affect this outcome?"

**[32:21]** But I didn't say those things.

**[32:23]** I just did them.

**[32:24]** So I went to the head of support, "Hey, what's wrong with this over here?"

**[32:27]** I went to this guy who was handling the ticket.

**[32:29]** I asked for pictures from the field when it was some kind of a field problem.

**[32:32]** I was curious enough to go, "What are we missing?

**[32:37]** How do we figure this out?"

**[32:38]** So there's sort of a strategic mindset, I guess, if you want to break down there.

**[32:42]** I'm a very strategic person.

**[32:44]** I suck at chess.

**[32:45]** I kind of like it, but I do suck it.

**[32:48]** It's not like a cookie cutter thing.

**[32:50]** But in business, I'm very curious.

**[32:53]** I know that I have a lot right.

**[32:55]** I know that I have a lot wrong, right?

**[32:58]** There's something like living it.

**[33:00]** There's nothing like living it, is what I mean.

**[33:02]** To find out, "Oh, that's why they did what they did when I was at that one company."

**[33:07]** It makes sense.

**[33:08]** But I also have enough then, having lived it to know,

**[33:11]** "Oh, yeah, but I would still not do it that way."

**[33:13]** Because people matter, because principals matter, because you go to market matters,

**[33:17]** and at the end of the day, what kind of a company do you want to be?

**[33:21]** If it's all about making money, well, Wall Street's full of those.

**[33:23]** Just go be one of those.

**[33:25]** But if you're really about customer service, and you're really about filling a need,

**[33:28]** and you really want to have that method, then you have to be that.

**[33:34]** Sorry, circling back around there.

**[33:36]** No, makes sense, and I think the way you phrased it earlier is really just

**[33:43]** taking any role as a license to fix anything in the business,

**[33:46]** and not just being stuck in your role.

**[33:48]** A little bit.

**[33:49]** Some companies hate it, by the way.

**[33:52]** Right.

**[33:53]** That does lend itself, though, to kind of building that eclectic background.

**[33:57]** It's like, "Hey, no matter where I'm in, I'm not just staying in my lane."

**[34:01]** And a lot of people end up in RevOps, I think are attracted to it,

**[34:06]** because you get to dabble in quite a few different areas,

**[34:11]** and if anything's impacting the customer, if anything's impacting revenue,

**[34:15]** you do have that license to go fix whatever the problem is.

**[34:19]** So I think kind of how you've exhibited that throughout your career.

**[34:24]** RevOps is a good home for that.

**[34:26]** It really is, and I didn't know that.

**[34:29]** So customer success is still a relatively new term.

## 34:32 — A license to fix anything: not staying in your lane

**[34:32]** It's very popular on the West Coast and very popular with startups

**[34:35]** and smaller companies, but a lot of your really big enterprise companies

**[34:39]** are just barely sort of toying with the idea of customer success.

**[34:42]** It's not because they don't need it.

**[34:44]** It's because the role by itself is so broadly defined.

**[34:50]** And so when I started there, for me, it was,

**[34:54]** "Hey, we have these accounts that are failing.

**[34:57]** We have revenue that's not being maintained.

**[34:59]** We have customers that are threatening us, and they're big customers,

**[35:02]** and they're big accounts, and they're big projects,

**[35:04]** and they need somebody who's both technical and customer-oriented

**[35:08]** and broad-minded and can see the whole picture

**[35:10]** and doesn't mind both getting in and getting their hands dirty

**[35:13]** and also can present to the executives."

**[35:17]** That was me. I didn't know that was me.

**[35:20]** But I had a friend of mine in business that, honestly,

**[35:23]** we didn't know each other all that much.

**[35:25]** He was Matt, and I'll be forever grateful to him because he got--

**[35:29]** he saw sort of an opportunity for me.

**[35:32]** And it might have been nothing to him,

**[35:34]** and he might have listed 10 other people.

**[35:36]** I don't know. I'll ask him one day.

**[35:38]** But he asked me, I got the role, and I learned sort of what I was

**[35:43]** and what I was capable of doing.

**[35:46]** And that evolved.

**[35:48]** Some companies go, "Well, that sounds like you're a sales engineer

**[35:50]** and we really need a technical guy."

**[35:52]** Or, "It sounds like you're RevOps or it sounds like you're head of support."

**[35:56]** Well, that's a very different role, and I've lived that life,

**[35:59]** and I'm telling you that's not what I am.

**[36:01]** I can do it. I can do it, right?

**[36:03]** It sort of fits, but that's all about like tickets and management

**[36:08]** and handling, right?

**[36:10]** It's a different mindset than being able to be a little more broad, right?

**[36:13]** Support is not that broad.

**[36:15]** So, yeah, RevOps ends up being a fit that I didn't know I was.

**[36:21]** If you do RevOps or just straight business operations,

**[36:25]** they both tend to have a lot of overlap.

**[36:28]** Different companies see them different ways, right?

**[36:30]** Some companies go, "Oh, that is--"

**[36:32]** RevOps is basically head of sales.

**[36:34]** That's not me, and I'm not going to pretend that I am.

**[36:36]** I've done it regionally.

**[36:38]** I've never been bigger than like a regional head of sales.

**[36:41]** But it's not really what I do, and it's not--

**[36:45]** And I've been a sales rep, too, right, just to be clear.

**[36:47]** It wasn't like somebody brought me in and said,

**[36:49]** "I'm a head of sales." That wouldn't make any sense either, right?

**[36:52]** Going back to you got to be qualified for the role.

**[36:54]** But, no, mine is very much--

**[36:57]** You see the issues that are affecting revenue, right?

**[37:00]** It's sales training. It's technical knowledge.

**[37:02]** It's selling too heavy on features when we really should be selling outcomes.

**[37:06]** But it's also what's taking away their time.

**[37:09]** They're spending way too much time doing data entry.

**[37:12]** We got to fix that. Like, this is 2026.

**[37:14]** We have AI. We have automation.

**[37:16]** Let's not jump on the AI bandwagon for the sake of we have AI and we have data.

**[37:21]** We're a forward-thinking company.

**[37:23]** It has to solve the problem that we have.

**[37:26]** So we got to be really clear with ourselves what we want it for,

**[37:29]** find the best solution, build in-house, or use what's already there, right?

**[37:33]** Get our balance right.

**[37:35]** And then make that better because, ultimately, why do we set up to do this?

**[37:38]** Well, our hunters need to hunt.

## 37:40 — Why RevOps is the home: a data-entry problem, not a sales problem

**[37:40]** We need to have them focused on that new business.

**[37:42]** And if they're focused on, at the end of the month, why I'm going,

**[37:45]** "Well, how come you don't have notes?"

**[37:48]** I have a different problem. I don't have a sales problem.

**[37:51]** I have a data entry and operations and an infrastructure problem.

**[37:57]** Not a salesperson problem. Not necessarily, right? They bleed over.

**[38:02]** That's the kind of stuff that RevOps gets into, right?

**[38:05]** And when we uncover that and we make reports and we dig into reports

**[38:08]** and we ask for reports, all those things that are people like,

**[38:11]** "Oh, God, the spreadsheets, this sucks." Right?

**[38:14]** But if you know what to do with that data, what's the point?

**[38:17]** The point is not to build a better spreadsheet and be super technical

**[38:20]** and show you that it can do these five different things

**[38:22]** and show all these graphs and have 25 different subsets of pages.

**[38:25]** No, the point is what does that do for us as a business?

**[38:28]** And for somebody to be broad enough to go, "Look, we already have hundreds of reports.

**[38:32]** We already have tons in our CRM. We have tons over here.

**[38:35]** We have tons in our phone system, tons in support. What's it telling us?"

**[38:40]** Which is what all these AI companies are trying to set up to do, right?

**[38:43]** What's it telling us? How do we clean it? How do we keep it operational?

**[38:47]** How do we scale beyond where we are now?

**[38:50]** That's the kind of stuff that just sort of naturally fit

**[38:52]** and that's what I've gotten into over the years.

**[38:55]** What type of AI applications are you running

**[39:00]** where you're finding real, tangible business value?

**[39:03]** What are some specific ways you're leveraging

**[39:05]** that has really unlocked you and the team?

**[39:08]** I'll say a few. One, a good friend of mine, his name is Jamie.

**[39:13]** He introduced me to Cursor and he is one of those guys that he's very technical to.

**[39:17]** He's actually in a different role. He's not an engineer at all, right?

**[39:21]** He's got a very different role, but he loves doing things on the side as well.

**[39:25]** And I think as you go along, you meet these like-minded people

**[39:29]** and you're like, "Man, this is just a good dude.

**[39:31]** This is just a good person, a good woman, a good friend, a good whatever."

**[39:35]** And you sort of meet them and you kind of keep them in your mind.

**[39:37]** And he was one of those that goes, "Oh, you're working on this project.

**[39:40]** Have you ever tried this?"

**[39:41]** I was using chat GPT and then using like another stack with lovable

**[39:46]** and all these things, right? I started what I didn't know.

**[39:49]** I didn't know the technology exists that I could do what I'm doing now.

**[39:53]** And then I learned about Cursor. So plug to them.

**[39:56]** I don't know them. They don't know me. I pay them.

**[39:58]** That's what happens.

**[40:00]** But I have built with them in less than a year

## 40:03 — The AI stack: Cursor, ChatGPT, Update AI, Superhuman

**[40:05]** what took an engineering team of 20 to do three years ago, right?

**[40:10]** So it's huge. It's huge.

**[40:13]** I have made a ton of mistakes.

**[40:16]** I'd say it's really like working with an actual engineer, but it's just an AI, right?

**[40:20]** You've got to be specific. You've got to understand.

**[40:24]** And at some point at night, I never understood the engineers that coded late at night,

**[40:28]** but I do now. I'm like, "Yeah, but it's when you're getting in your flow, it's all quiet."

**[40:32]** But also my body's going, "I'm shutting down and my brain power is halved."

**[40:35]** So it's this fun. I'm learning all the things. So that's one, right?

**[40:39]** There's Cursor.

**[40:41]** Chat GPT, obviously. I'll probably always have it.

**[40:44]** The thing to watch out for Chat GPT is, I know it likes to blow smoke.

**[40:48]** It adapts so much to me. My Chat GPT is different from my wife's Chat GPT, right?

**[40:53]** There's different languaging. Mine talks like a tech bro, and she hates it.

**[40:57]** And I'm like, "Yeah, it does have this sort of cadence that it gets into."

**[41:01]** And I don't know how to stop it, right? It's like, "Too late for me. Save yourself.

**[41:04]** I have to start a new account if I want any different."

**[41:06]** But it has all my context. Chat GPT was my very first AI anything, right?

**[41:11]** That was sort of publicly known AI.

**[41:14]** It's like the assistant to me that's always there.

**[41:17]** Maybe Gemini will be better than it soon. Maybe not. I don't know.

**[41:20]** I haven't really tried that. But I'll give one more.

**[41:23]** And this one's kind of crazy, but it's one that I, when I run a business,

**[41:27]** this is something I budget for everywhere. Used to be Update AI.

**[41:31]** And shout out to Josh and his team. I mean that because they built a great product.

**[41:34]** They're no longer a thing. Their company's gone because they got acquired.

**[41:37]** Good for them, yay. But I'm also sad because they're meeting, you know,

**[41:43]** we would like take the video meeting. It would get the transcript, yes.

**[41:46]** But then it would just do this amazing stuff with the data for the sales team

**[41:49]** and the CS team and product and support and everyone.

**[41:52]** And you could learn directly from your accounts, right?

**[41:54]** And it knew customer account versus internal account.

**[41:57]** That was a great AI product.

**[41:59]** But the last one is superhuman. Superhuman email.

**[42:03]** I didn't even know for years that they did a bunch of other stuff.

**[42:06]** But I'm telling you, those guys save me hours every single week on email.

**[42:11]** And I know that's kind of their slogan. So I'll try not to be too much of like a plug.

**[42:15]** And again, these are just companies I pay money to.

**[42:18]** Like Josh's company knew me and I sort of knew them a little bit.

**[42:21]** Good people, but I don't know anybody that's superhuman.

**[42:26]** I even applied for work there years ago because I was like, I love what you do.

**[42:29]** And they were like, we're not looking for you.

**[42:34]** So, you know, it's not always a fit, right?

**[42:37]** But they're great. And anytime I go in, I'm like, OK, if I'm building, it's cursor.

**[42:42]** If I have engineers that want to use it or if they have their own thing,

**[42:45]** have some sort of AI that really promotes you, frees up your time,

**[42:48]** makes you more efficient as an engineer.

**[42:50]** If it's support, then you got to have like chat GPT or something.

**[42:53]** You know, sometimes I'm not good with customers.

**[42:56]** Well, I need to make this a little nicer, right?

**[42:58]** So the customer is OK with what I'm saying to them.

**[43:00]** Or I'm drawing a blank today. I need something to help me out.

**[43:04]** And then superhuman, I promote it everywhere.

**[43:07]** When the inbox gets filling up, it just seriously, it's such a time save.

**[43:11]** I hate being without it because I get so used to the little keyboard shortcuts.

**[43:15]** So that's me. Yeah.

**[43:17]** No, there's an explosion of tools. I think we've gotten heavy on cloud code

**[43:23]** and building a lot of our own workflows, agents and agentified applications as well.

**[43:29]** So I think there's a lot you can do.

**[43:32]** And of course, you can't even forecast out a week or two into what's coming out.

**[43:38]** So I think we'll see quite a bit of impressive things coming out in the near future.

**[43:44]** Yeah. Yeah, I think so, too. And it'll be interesting to see what companies are still around

**[43:50]** by the time it all really sort of settles.

**[43:53]** Yeah, it's definitely taking away the moat of your software application.

**[43:58]** So a lot of these things can now be built within a few prompts.

**[44:03]** There's things to take it to production grade level.

**[44:05]** But but yes, people will definitely have to step up their game,

**[44:09]** their capabilities to stay relevant in this new world.

**[44:12]** I will say that sort of a piece of that because it always scares.

**[44:16]** It scares me. This is a side tangent, but it's something that I've lived.

**[44:19]** And so in my experience, I can do on the one hand, I can do what a team of people,

**[44:26]** what took a team of people to do just basic functionality.

**[44:30]** However, I see so many mistakes that I make and I see so much less efficiency that I have.

**[44:39]** So I cannot wait to be able to hire.

**[44:43]** Thankfully, I've got a list of people that I know and it'll be a conversation of,

**[44:46]** hey, what's it going to take for you to work for me?

**[44:49]** And I hope that I can afford them, right?

**[44:50]** You can never afford the best people. That's always the sucky part, right?

**[44:53]** But I want them to do it because they're an engineer.

**[44:57]** And I have lived the life of, yes, I can make it myself, but I make so many mistakes.

**[45:03]** And my time is so much more valuable spent on what I'm good at versus trying to do someone else's role.

## 45:08 — Why AI needs more people, not fewer

**[45:08]** So for me, there's definitely a piece of, yeah, in my mind,

**[45:15]** I always hire for someone who can do the role anyway, and I don't care as much about their pedigree.

**[45:20]** I care about if I can legally hire them and that sort of thing, right?

**[45:23]** And do they have a record and things that I have to care about, of course.

**[45:27]** But I know a guy who's whip smart and he's one of those guys that's on my list, the good list.

**[45:33]** Like, hey, I want to work with you again.

**[45:35]** I haven't talked to him in years, right? Really good guy.

**[45:38]** He's not an engineer, but he was like the most engineer, non-engineer you ever met.

**[45:44]** He was good at code. He understood it. He knew the tech side. He knew the support side.

**[45:48]** He was a great all-arounder guy, and I was like, man, he would be such a good layer,

**[45:53]** either if he's really good at building the code or if you just need somebody as like that tech engineer

**[45:59]** who knows the code, can really work with it, can work across the org,

**[46:03]** but can be this sort of layer in between support.

**[46:06]** And that's what they ended up putting him as, but they sort of kept him on support.

**[46:09]** So engineering never really accepted him into there because he didn't have an engineering degree.

**[46:13]** And I'm like, I couldn't care less. I couldn't care less.

**[46:16]** So for me, that kind of person who's really good at it, I'd be like, oh, my God, please take the code.

**[46:21]** I will talk to you about what we want to do, and I'll say all the stuff that I really think you should do,

**[46:27]** but you do it. And even if you're the one who's using Cursor or Clod or Gemini or all of the above,

**[46:32]** helping you code, you're so much better at it than me.

**[46:35]** So that comes back to the conversation of, yes, people have to stay relevant,

**[46:40]** but I don't think it's actually that hard to stay relevant.

**[46:43]** And I think that the big AI, oh, it'll just do everything for you.

**[46:48]** Well, I've never been able to let agents loose and it worked that well,

**[46:53]** not without building a whole other brand new program to keep all the agents in line

**[47:00]** and then QC those agents and then QC those QC agents.

**[47:03]** And I'm like, or I could just hire a person who knows all that stuff

**[47:08]** and then they have a few people that also know all that stuff.

**[47:11]** And we keep the AI in line to do a lot of the heavy lifting to build,

**[47:15]** but we know what it's supposed to be in the end.

**[47:17]** Like keeping the AI in line is a full freaking time job.

**[47:20]** Plus it's training me how to talk to it. So there's that too.

**[47:24]** I do think AI is going to open up opportunities for people in a lot of cases,

**[47:30]** the more AI you have and the more productivity it can layer into your team,

**[47:35]** the more people you're going to need in order to keep up with the productivity that you have.

**[47:39]** So, Luke, I just want to thank you for everything that you share today,

**[47:42]** everything on culture,

**[47:44]** the issue that a lot of companies are really not paying close enough attention to,

**[47:49]** that internal team attrition and how much that can impact your organization.

**[47:53]** And then of course,

**[47:55]** going through all the things that have made you successful in your RevOps role today

**[47:59]** with that deep empathy for all of the roles on the go-to-market side of the house.

**[48:04]** So, Luke, thank you for being on the podcast

**[48:06]** and can't wait to see what you do with your new business and what you do next.

**[48:10]** Well, you got it, man. Stay tuned.

**[48:12]** I'll probably tell you before I tell a lot of other people.

**[48:15]** So we'll see where it goes, but thanks for having me.

**[48:18]** I hope it was of some value to you and to your listeners.

**[48:23]** ♪♪♪

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