---
title: "The Demand Engine Never Existed"
episode: 121
podcast: "The LeanScale Podcast"
publisher: "LeanScale"
guest: "Jason Tatum"
guest_title: "CEO, Mixmax"
date_published: 2026-09-18
date_modified: 2026-09-21
duration: 00:49:27
word_count: 7482
topics: ["demand-generation", "gtm-strategy", "brand-positioning", "sales-leadership"]
canonical_url: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/jason-tatum-mixmax-demand-engine-never-existed/
source: "LeanScale Knowledge Hub — https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge"
license: "Free to quote and cite with attribution to The LeanScale Podcast."
---

# The Demand Engine Never Existed — Full Transcript

> Episode 121 of The LeanScale Podcast, with Jason Tatum.
> Published September 18, 2026 · 00:49:27 · 7482 words.
> Machine-transcribed and **not diarized** — speaker attribution is inferred, so verify
> attribution against the audio before quoting a specific person.
> Structured breakdown: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/jason-tatum-mixmax-demand-engine-never-existed/

## 00:00 — Cold open and intro

**[0:00]** - My guest today is Jason Tatum, the CEO of Mixmax.

**[0:05]** Jason spent nine years at CallRail,

**[0:07]** rising from product owner to VP of product,

**[0:11]** while the Atlanta-based company scaled past $100 million

**[0:15]** in recurring revenue.

**[0:16]** - And you'd think that our sales team was just so busy

**[0:20]** over here doing this thing, but their calendars were empty.

**[0:23]** - He said, "I want to use the language

**[0:25]** that our customers use,

**[0:27]** not what we want to say about ourselves.

**[0:29]** I've never heard it articulated that way."

**[0:31]** - An account executive.

**[0:34]** They're thinking about it in terms of their life.

**[0:37]** They're the center of the story.

**[0:39]** We're there to help them along.

**[0:41]** - Do you think some people are going on these false missions

**[0:44]** to go get enterprise deals when they should really focus

**[0:47]** in their primary market?

**[0:48]** - In reality, when you look under the hood

**[0:50]** of a lot of these companies, it's a mess.

**[0:58]** - Jason, you joined Mixmax in November to run product.

**[1:01]** By May, you were being asked to run the entire company.

**[1:05]** What did you see in those first six months

**[1:08]** that made you say yes?

**[1:11]** - You know, it's really two things.

**[1:15]** It's team first, and there was so many extremely smart people

**[1:21]** and it's a credit to my predecessor,

**[1:24]** who, I think, annoyingly to a lot of people,

**[1:28]** held a very tight line in terms of the standard for hiring.

**[1:32]** And hired some really sharp people that really care

**[1:37]** and are excited to do the work.

**[1:40]** And that was very clear to me early on

**[1:44]** and has continued to be the case even more so now.

**[1:47]** The second thing, and this was something

**[1:50]** I did not necessarily know on day one,

**[1:52]** but I know now, which is that there are people

**[1:56]** that love this product.

**[1:58]** There are people organically that come out of the woodwork.

**[2:03]** I had never heard of it.

**[2:05]** Most people have never heard of it.

**[2:06]** But the people that have, so many of them swear by it.

**[2:10]** And I've had people come up to me,

**[2:11]** and they're like, "Ah, I love Mixmax."

**[2:13]** I've taken Mixmax everywhere I go.

**[2:15]** It does, it's essential for me.

**[2:18]** And knowing that there are those people,

**[2:22]** there are lots of those people that have come to us

**[2:26]** and are raving fans,

**[2:28]** but have never been propped up

**[2:31]** by some kind of go-to-market engine to amplify that,

**[2:36]** I thought was extremely compelling

**[2:38]** and something that I thought was worth diving into.

**[2:45]** - Well, I've been in the go-to-market space for a long time,

**[2:47]** and there are definitely a lot of really strong fans

**[2:50]** of Mixmax.

**[2:51]** Our COO has used Mixmax at every company he's been at.

**[2:55]** Previous company I was at

**[2:56]** before starting LeanScale in 2021.

**[2:58]** Our co-founder was a huge fan as well.

**[3:00]** So that definitely has a following

**[3:04]** of people who really love the product.

## 03:07 — The PLG trap — when virality replaces discipline

**[3:07]** I'm curious though, I've seen this happen a couple times.

**[3:11]** You get a really, really strong PLG motion.

**[3:15]** You're getting flooded with inbound.

**[3:17]** You just have a lot of people coming your way.

**[3:19]** Sometimes that takes away the discipline

**[3:22]** on the go-to-market side.

**[3:23]** How did you see that dynamic

**[3:25]** when you joined the Mixmax team?

**[3:27]** - So to deal with the go-to-market motion

**[3:30]** and the discipline when there's so much virality

**[3:34]** and it's all inbound,

**[3:36]** it's really that the early team was very lean.

**[3:40]** They ran lean, they bootstrapped in a lot of ways

**[3:43]** for a good amount of the process.

## 03:46 — "Fish were just jumping in the boat"

**[3:46]** And the product was so good

**[3:50]** that fish were just jumping in the boat.

**[3:52]** And when fish are jumping in the boat,

**[3:55]** at the rate that they were due to the product

**[3:58]** and due to macro conditions of the way

**[4:02]** that companies were hiring in sales,

**[4:06]** it just seemed really efficient to lean on virality,

**[4:10]** lean on word of mouth.

**[4:13]** And so in looking back, I initially thought

**[4:18]** that it was a demand engine that had broken at some point.

**[4:23]** But what we really uncovered

**[4:25]** is that it never existed in the first place.

**[4:28]** The infrastructure never was really put in place

**[4:32]** to scale with that virality

**[4:36]** and to support it when there are ebbs and flows

**[4:39]** in the market or ebbs and flows

**[4:40]** in terms of where you're at

**[4:45]** in terms of the competitive landscape.

**[4:47]** So by the time they got through 2019, 2020,

**[4:54]** at this point, that virality has crossed into sales teams.

**[4:59]** It was kind of this prosumer thing

**[5:02]** where it's entrepreneurs and real estate agents

**[5:06]** and a lot of startup founders, like SaaS startup founders.

**[5:11]** And now you've got mid-market enterprise coming

**[5:14]** and saying, "We need this tool."

**[5:16]** And you've done no marketing.

**[5:18]** It's just happening.

**[5:20]** And so they pivoted hard in that direction

**[5:22]** and chased that really hard.

**[5:24]** And put wisely, I think put a strong effort

**[5:29]** from a direct sales perspective,

**[5:31]** but still for whatever reason,

**[5:34]** that core, we have to continue generating demand.

**[5:41]** It just, it never really got there.

**[5:42]** It never really matured.

**[5:46]** - So you're going through this growth curve.

**[5:48]** Virality is fueling the growth the entire time.

**[5:51]** There's starts to be a diminishing return on that.

**[5:54]** That could be a very difficult situation

**[5:57]** for a company to be in.

**[6:00]** When you came in to lead product,

**[6:02]** were you starting to see that already?

**[6:05]** Just when you joined and noticing

**[6:07]** what some of those systemic issues might be?

## 06:11 — Day one: "How do our Google ads perform?"

**[6:11]** - Yeah, I mean, on my first day,

**[6:14]** I was surprised because the product is so self-evidently

**[6:20]** a PLG native product.

**[6:24]** And I asked on my first day,

**[6:28]** so how do our Google ads perform?

**[6:32]** What's our CAC?

**[6:34]** And all that kind of stuff.

**[6:35]** And I don't know, and we don't do Google ads.

**[6:42]** And I was just so surprised.

**[6:43]** Now, a lot of this is not an indictment

**[6:46]** on anyone from Mixmax, but where I came from

**[6:51]** was a place where not only was the product fantastic,

**[6:56]** but there are people that came in along the way

**[7:00]** who built a world-class marketing operation at CallRail.

**[7:04]** So shout out to those people.

**[7:07]** They've done something truly incredible

**[7:09]** built on top of something

**[7:10]** that was already truly incredible.

**[7:11]** It's awesome.

**[7:13]** And I am not a go-to-market expert

**[7:15]** in terms of how to stand up a marketing operation,

**[7:19]** but I was close to it.

**[7:23]** I had to watch it happen over several years.

**[7:27]** And a lot of what somewhat by osmosis I learned there,

**[7:34]** I was not seeing the similar patterns

**[7:38]** for where Mixmax was at the time.

**[7:41]** And yeah, I think it's important to mention

**[7:44]** that a lot of what drove some of the challenges

**[7:48]** started with just macro headwinds.

**[7:52]** Eventually we crested COVID,

**[7:55]** sales teams started contracting.

**[7:59]** And so what I love is that

**[8:02]** there were various different investments in the product

**[8:05]** to counteract that contraction.

**[8:09]** But for various reasons, the bets didn't land.

**[8:12]** And at the end of the day,

**[8:15]** you're still not running Google ads.

**[8:17]** You're still not invested in your SEO or AEO now.

**[8:22]** And that can be fatal if it goes on for too long.

**[8:28]** - So where would you say current state is now?

**[8:32]** So you've been in seat for a little bit, not very long.

**[8:35]** And I know it takes a while to fully get the bearings

**[8:39]** of what's going on across the whole business.

**[8:42]** But what does current state feel like?

**[8:43]** And what is the opportunity for the future look like?

## 08:46 — Current state: rebuilding the infrastructure and the identity

**[8:46]** - Yeah, so current state right now, live as we speak,

**[8:50]** we are aggressively building out that infrastructure.

**[8:56]** We migrated the website rapidly to Vercel

**[9:00]** to make it much easier for us to test.

**[9:03]** We're rapidly standing up new versions of our homepage

**[9:08]** to see what drives higher click rates and signup rates.

**[9:13]** We're testing Google ads, testing other page channels.

**[9:17]** And the biggest thing in this,

**[9:19]** and we're doing it all at the same time, which is fun,

**[9:22]** is getting our core identity straight.

**[9:27]** Who are we?

**[9:28]** We've had two motions for so long, self-serve,

**[9:32]** direct sales, the one person team

**[9:37]** and the hundred person team.

**[9:39]** Both we're trying to cater to.

**[9:43]** How do we talk about ourselves?

**[9:44]** And it's made it really hard, I think, to have an identity.

**[9:48]** And so, like your coworker who loves Mixmax,

**[9:52]** he knows Mixmax, he knows the value that it provides.

**[9:56]** He can tell people that, but what people struggle with

**[10:00]** is actually communicating what it is that it does,

**[10:05]** that, like, what is it, you know?

**[10:07]** And they're like, it's essential.

**[10:08]** It makes my life so much easier.

**[10:10]** And it helps my business.

**[10:12]** Well, how does it do this?

**[10:14]** It's like, it's kind of hard to explain.

**[10:16]** Like, so we're dialing that in.

**[10:18]** Like, that's a real problem, right?

**[10:19]** That's a serious problem

**[10:21]** where you have product market fit somehow,

**[10:24]** but the language is hard to get right around it.

**[10:27]** Like, that's a weird place to be for a 12 year old company.

**[10:30]** But we're getting there.

**[10:31]** We've talked to so many customers and we've gone back,

**[10:35]** and leads, and we've gone back through, you know,

**[10:39]** through an exercise of what is our message?

**[10:42]** You know, who are we really for?

**[10:45]** Making that really clear,

**[10:46]** that's where we're at is that core redefining,

**[10:51]** and then chasing hard after that,

**[10:54]** and iterating, and iterating, and iterating.

**[10:58]** But it's wild.

**[10:59]** It's a wild place to be in.

**[11:01]** It's a lot of fun.

**[11:02]** And, you know, going back to the team,

**[11:05]** to my marketing team that are,

**[11:10]** by providence, or happenstance, or the universe,

**[11:12]** like, these are really sharp people

**[11:14]** that I've ended up with.

**[11:15]** So, we've got a good shot at it.

**[11:19]** - Yeah, and I think that dynamic

**[11:20]** is more important than ever.

**[11:21]** There's so much competition and noise in this space,

**[11:28]** that it is really important to have a dial in,

**[11:31]** where maybe you could have some loose brand messaging,

**[11:34]** or have a rough idea of who your ICP is,

**[11:37]** or who you're targeting,

**[11:38]** but now it has to be laser focused.

**[11:42]** And I'm curious at this point in time,

**[11:44]** and I know things are potentially developing,

## 11:46 — Who Mixmax is really for: teams of one or 100

**[11:46]** but who would you say is that target for MixMax now?

**[11:52]** - Yeah, you know, a customer said this.

**[11:55]** And so, you know, I'm pushing really heavily

**[11:59]** that we describe ourselves the way our customers describe us,

**[12:02]** and use their language,

**[12:04]** and not what we might want it to be.

**[12:06]** But, you know, someone said, you know,

**[12:09]** MixMax is great for teams of one or 100.

**[12:12]** I would say that the very core is that small business,

**[12:19]** or that founding business,

**[12:21]** or that founding AE team in a bigger org,

**[12:25]** where they have the problem of jump-starting outreach,

**[12:30]** and they don't want to go through this laborious process

**[12:35]** of setting up the infrastructure of their outreach.

**[12:39]** They want it fast.

**[12:40]** They want to be able to move fast

**[12:41]** so they can focus on other things.

**[12:42]** MixMax makes that really, really easy.

**[12:45]** And that is where we're truly differentiated,

**[12:48]** is how quickly you can be up and running with an outreach.

**[12:52]** And then the tools within it make it where, you know,

**[12:56]** your follow-up, the follow-up,

**[12:59]** the grind of turning, you know,

**[13:02]** whether you, whatever you call them.

**[13:04]** A lot of our customers,

**[13:05]** they don't consider themselves salespeople.

**[13:09]** They don't consider the people

**[13:10]** that they're emailing prospects.

**[13:13]** But nevertheless, the lifeblood for them

**[13:15]** is this grind of following up,

**[13:19]** not dropping the ball, keeping the relationship,

**[13:22]** like building the relationship,

**[13:24]** and getting to the next meeting.

**[13:26]** And MixMax makes that really, really easy,

**[13:29]** and much less painful to have to manage.

**[13:34]** And that's why it's been successful.

**[13:36]** So I would say that, you know, for anybody

**[13:39]** that's starting something where they've got,

**[13:43]** they've got to get the word out,

**[13:45]** and they've got to start working,

**[13:47]** like they got to start turning that outreach

**[13:49]** into relationships that convert.

**[13:52]** MixMax is really good for them.

**[13:55]** Small teams, I think, but one or 100 and more,

**[14:00]** is we have happy customers.

## 14:03 — Describe yourself the way your customers describe you

**[14:03]** - I want to go back to something you said,

**[14:04]** 'cause I think that's an interesting philosophy,

**[14:08]** and I'm curious where it came from.

**[14:09]** You said, "I want to use the language

**[14:11]** "that our customers use,

**[14:13]** "not what we want to say about ourselves."

**[14:16]** I've never heard it articulated that way,

**[14:18]** but I feel like I've seen this play out so many times

**[14:21]** at so many companies where they want to present themselves

**[14:26]** in a certain way, and are really excited

**[14:29]** about certain things that they're doing,

**[14:31]** when they have a whole customer base

**[14:32]** valuing something maybe slightly different.

**[14:36]** Did you pick that up somewhere?

**[14:38]** Was this a realization when you got here?

**[14:40]** Where does that come from?

**[14:41]** - Yeah, you know, he's the lightning rod,

**[14:43]** but Jason Fried, he said something,

**[14:47]** he's the founder of 37signals that makes,

**[14:50]** co-founder that makes Basecamp and Hay, the email client,

**[14:55]** and he said that not that long ago,

**[14:59]** and it stuck with me,

**[15:02]** and if you Google Mixmax,

**[15:07]** it's gonna say we're a sales engagement platform.

**[15:10]** Guess what?

**[15:12]** Nobody that comes to our website

**[15:14]** is Googling sales engagement platform.

**[15:17]** None of our customers, or leads,

**[15:19]** refer to us as a sales engagement platform.

**[15:22]** That means nothing to them.

**[15:25]** So this thing that makes my follow-up easy

**[15:32]** you know, keeps my relationships going,

**[15:36]** like, you know, it doesn't fit as well on like a slide deck,

**[15:41]** but it's the reality, and it's valuable,

**[15:43]** and people pay for it.

**[15:46]** - Yeah, well, I think that's a really important thing

**[15:49]** for people to just reflect on.

**[15:51]** I know running LeanScale,

**[15:54]** being the founder of this company,

**[15:56]** I've definitely run into that,

**[15:58]** where, you know, I'm a connoisseur of what we do,

**[16:01]** so I wanna use really specific language

**[16:04]** that describes it in the most specific way,

**[16:07]** or captures all of our capabilities,

**[16:09]** but that doesn't mean that's what our customers

**[16:11]** are thinking, or the language that they use,

**[16:13]** or how they would even resonate

**[16:15]** with who we are and what we do.

**[16:17]** So I know I've personally run into that.

**[16:19]** When you said that, that just clicked for me

**[16:21]** and my own business, too.

**[16:23]** - Customers don't think about our businesses

**[16:26]** in any way, shape, or form,

**[16:27]** other than does it solve the problem

**[16:31]** that it's supposed to solve?

**[16:33]** And that ideally means that they're not thinking

**[16:35]** about you at all, because it just works.

**[16:39]** They certainly are not thinking about your,

**[16:42]** they're not thinking about your features, you know.

**[16:45]** (laughs)

**[16:46]** They're not talking about,

**[16:47]** they're not thinking about sequences

**[16:50]** unless they are actually an account executive.

**[16:54]** They're thinking about it in terms of their life.

**[16:57]** They're the center of the story.

**[17:00]** We're there to help them along.

## 17:04 — The non-obvious find: nobody could talk to a salesperson

**[17:04]** - What are some other maybe non-obvious things

**[17:07]** that you've had to address on the go-to-market side

**[17:11]** of MixMax to make sure that you can really fine-tune

**[17:17]** your efforts and get in front of the people

**[17:18]** you want to be in front of?

**[17:23]** - Well, as I say, everything is like, you know,

**[17:28]** this is, you know, we're not out of the first inning

**[17:33]** of, you know, the new MixMax.

**[17:35]** So we should ask them again in six months.

**[17:37]** It would be fascinating.

**[17:39]** But I guess not so obvious things.

**[17:45]** I mean, I've uncovered a lot and things

**[17:49]** that I have just been surprised by,

**[17:53]** but it's great because it gives us opportunity.

**[17:57]** The opportunity is there.

**[17:58]** And one of those things was, you know,

**[18:02]** we had a sales team, but they were trained on direct,

**[18:06]** what they called direct sales,

**[18:07]** which was, you know, mid-market enterprise,

**[18:12]** which meant that that's all

**[18:14]** they really were gonna talk to.

**[18:16]** But there's no great inbound engine driving that pipeline.

**[18:23]** And for whatever reason, kicks and starts,

**[18:27]** no criticism, but outbound was not working at this point.

**[18:33]** And so they weren't really talking to anybody

**[18:35]** or, you know, relatively anybody.

**[18:38]** Deals would come through because there was a trickle,

**[18:42]** all direct, this is not so obvious learning.

**[18:45]** Everybody that comes to the site previously has come

**[18:48]** because they literally typed in MixMax.

**[18:52]** Like an astounding level, it's shocking.

**[18:56]** And so they're already here because somebody told them

**[18:58]** or they've used it in the past.

**[19:00]** And if they were worth, you know,

**[19:04]** a certain amount of money and they raised their hand

**[19:06]** for a demo, they could talk to a salesperson.

**[19:09]** If they didn't want to do a contract,

**[19:11]** can't work with a salesperson.

**[19:13]** Don't want to do an annual deal,

**[19:15]** can't talk to a salesperson.

**[19:17]** And meanwhile, revenue and by far number of actual users

**[19:24]** are coming through all the time with high intent,

**[19:27]** with the looking for us to solve the problem that they have

**[19:31]** and they can't talk to anybody.

**[19:33]** And you'd think that our sales team was just so busy

**[19:36]** over here doing this thing, but their calendars were empty.

**[19:40]** And that was so surprising that they, you know,

**[19:45]** they weren't talking to anybody at all, hardly.

**[19:48]** And we got to get you talking.

**[19:51]** You got to get you talking to the people that are here,

**[19:54]** you know, here for the dance.

**[19:56]** These are the people that showed up to your birthday party,

**[19:57]** talked to them, you know, and they weren't doing that.

**[20:01]** And it was, you know, it was just a different way

**[20:06]** of thinking.

## 20:10 — Optimizing an empty calendar

**[20:10]** - And I think something that happens too,

**[20:14]** curious your opinion on this,

**[20:15]** a lot of teams get very obsessed with the optimization

**[20:19]** of the process.

**[20:20]** So, okay, how do we like dial in these little things,

**[20:23]** dial in those, and at the end of the day,

**[20:25]** they don't even have the volume coming in to optimize.

**[20:31]** I see it all the time in the RevOps world

**[20:33]** because a lot of RevOps people will just get really excited

**[20:37]** about building the capability of something,

**[20:41]** but it's probably not the right time to do it.

**[20:43]** Or there's other things to solve instead.

**[20:45]** Were you running into that with the team as well?

**[20:47]** - Yes, absolutely.

**[20:48]** I think that there's, you know, there's great wisdom

**[20:51]** in some of the like cliches of, you know,

**[20:53]** it's better to fish with a spear than a net.

**[20:58]** And, you know, that's great,

**[20:59]** but at some point you gotta throw the spear.

**[21:01]** And it felt like they were always sharpening the spear.

**[21:05]** And a lot of this has to do, I think,

**[21:08]** with how Mixmax came about,

**[21:13]** where they did enter this point from zero to one startup

**[21:17]** to scaling.

**[21:17]** And so they've got to scale.

**[21:19]** So they're trying to do all the right things

**[21:20]** to support scale.

**[21:22]** And that led to a lot of process and heavy tooling

**[21:28]** and rules and, you know, and all the things,

**[21:33]** routing, you know, complexities.

**[21:36]** And here are all the channels that we're going after,

**[21:39]** you know, that drive this super complicated spreadsheet.

**[21:43]** And, you know, meanwhile, like the calendars are empty

**[21:47]** and you're optimizing an empty calendar.

**[21:50]** It's not possible.

**[21:51]** It doesn't work 'cause there's nothing to optimize.

## 21:58 — The false mission upmarket

**[21:58]** - What do you think some of the plays will be moving forward?

**[22:03]** And I know we're in the first inning.

**[22:07]** And a couple of things you alluded to,

**[22:10]** like getting focused on that single founder,

**[22:13]** focus on the person that you think will get the most value

**[22:18]** out of Mixmax.

**[22:20]** And I know you've been working in mid market as well.

**[22:23]** A lot of companies are going the other way.

**[22:25]** They're doing everything they can to bolt on mid market

**[22:27]** or enterprise.

**[22:30]** I'd love to hear your perspective on saying,

**[22:32]** hey, we're going to intentionally not move up market.

**[22:36]** And is that for everyone?

**[22:39]** Do you think some people are going on these false missions

**[22:43]** to go get enterprise deals when they should really focus

**[22:45]** in their primary market?

**[22:48]** - I get, so the biggest problem if you're a growth company

**[22:52]** and you're growing is that your value is attached

**[22:55]** to that growth, but it's an unfair game

**[22:59]** because as the base gets bigger,

**[23:01]** the percentages get harder to keep up.

**[23:04]** And you can be extremely successful,

**[23:09]** but you can only optimize so far, right?

**[23:13]** Before you need to explore more territory

**[23:16]** if you're going to keep growing.

**[23:18]** And if you're going to be that company

**[23:20]** that continues to grow, whether for valuation

**[23:23]** or going public or whatever.

**[23:25]** And so I get it.

**[23:26]** I think it makes sense to think for a lot of businesses.

## 23:29 — Crossing the Chasm — get your foot on the beach

**[23:29]** But the key is that, and this is a reference

**[23:31]** to the book "Crossing the Chasm"

**[23:33]** that really resonated with me is that job number one,

**[23:38]** you've got to find the port in the storm.

**[23:39]** You've got to get your foot on the beach.

**[23:43]** You're out at sea, no raft.

**[23:46]** Get your foot on the beach.

**[23:48]** Establish it firmly in that one spot.

**[23:52]** And then once you know you're out of the water

**[23:55]** and you're on the beach, then you get to decide, right?

**[23:59]** Do we go further inland?

**[24:01]** Do we go deeper into this area

**[24:03]** that we're starting to get traction?

**[24:06]** Or do we go wide?

**[24:07]** Do we expand out and cover a wider array?

**[24:11]** Which means maybe we're not going deeper right now.

**[24:16]** Or maybe you have the resources to do all of that at once

**[24:18]** and you've got some really special magic going on.

**[24:22]** But in reality, when you look under the hood

**[24:25]** of a lot of these companies, it's a mess.

**[24:28]** It's just a mess.

## 24:31 — The Salesforce integration, SOC 2, and the fear of alienating enterprise

**[24:31]** I have an honest fear

**[24:34]** that I'm gonna alienate bigger customers.

**[24:39]** But at the end of the day, or turn them away in some way,

**[24:44]** and I don't want to do that,

**[24:45]** what I want is the product be so good

**[24:50]** and solve a problem so well

**[24:52]** that if you have that problem no matter your size,

**[24:56]** then MixMax can solve it regardless of how big you are.

**[25:02]** And that means that there are certain things

**[25:04]** that we need to be able to do well.

**[25:05]** We actually have a best in class Salesforce integration.

**[25:10]** A big differentiator for us in the mid-market enterprise

**[25:13]** is that Salesforce integration.

**[25:15]** You know, we're SOC 2 compliant, things like that.

**[25:20]** But if we're gonna win, if we're really gonna win,

**[25:23]** in the long term, we have got to focus in

**[25:26]** on a much narrower market.

**[25:31]** And my philosophy is lean in to where you naturally have,

**[25:36]** where are you already winning, you know?

**[25:38]** And you're not even trying.

**[25:40]** And if you're winning by your co-founder

**[25:46]** taking MixMax everywhere he goes

**[25:48]** and telling people he loves MixMax,

**[25:49]** well, why don't we make it easier for him

**[25:52]** to tell other people that he loves MixMax

**[25:55]** for the people that need it?

**[25:56]** What if we tried for every signup that gets a free trial

**[26:02]** regardless of their size?

**[26:03]** What if we acted like we really cared about their success?

**[26:08]** Whether they're one or 100.

**[26:11]** What if we had the opportunity to build the relationship

**[26:14]** and prove that we exist for your business's growth

**[26:19]** no matter where you are in the curve?

**[26:22]** And if we do that well, then we'll be successful

**[26:25]** and we'll have the opportunity to spread out on the beach

**[26:29]** and do all kinds of different things.

**[26:30]** But first we've got to be really solid

**[26:33]** that we know how to replicate and maximize and optimize

**[26:42]** where we're already strong.

**[26:43]** And that's with smaller teams,

**[26:47]** a lot of teams that are just starting out

**[26:49]** and so that's where we wanna double down.

**[26:54]** - I think that's good advice for business,

**[26:56]** good advice personally as well,

**[26:58]** just leaning into your strengths

**[27:01]** and leaning into those competitive advantages

**[27:03]** that I like the way you put it,

**[27:05]** where you're winning and you're not even trying.

**[27:08]** You're just organically naturally good

**[27:11]** at acquiring this type of customer

**[27:13]** where they're just drawn to you

**[27:14]** and how do you just continue to double down on that?

**[27:16]** And if you wanna bolt things on later in the future,

**[27:19]** fine, figure out a way to do it.

**[27:20]** But let's go get all the low hanging fruit first.

**[27:24]** - Yeah, yeah, that's the deal.

## 27:27 — "No one arrives mature" — hiring finance, freeing the English major

**[27:27]** I mean, I came into this role

**[27:30]** and no one arrives mature,

**[27:36]** everyone's in the process of maturing.

**[27:39]** And one thing I've learned in my process

**[27:42]** is that there are a lot of things

**[27:44]** that I just should not be doing

**[27:46]** because other people are better for it.

**[27:50]** And when I came in,

**[27:55]** there wasn't really a finance function.

**[27:59]** I like, I gotta have finance help.

**[28:01]** I'm an English major for crying out loud.

**[28:04]** I gotta get finance help, you know?

**[28:07]** And so I did, I did.

**[28:09]** And that gives me, that frees my brain up

**[28:13]** to dig in with our two buddies in marketing

**[28:21]** that are like, right now I'm gonna have Slack threads

**[28:25]** where they're talking about different things to test

**[28:30]** in terms of the message and we're getting really close.

**[28:33]** That gives me the brain space to go and think about that

**[28:36]** and apply the English major brain.

**[28:38]** So otherwise you're just swimming upstream, you know?

**[28:42]** It's not as fun and you're unlikely to succeed.

**[28:46]** - How has that transition been?

**[28:49]** 'Cause this is quite a different role, I'm assuming,

**[28:54]** than leading product.

**[28:55]** I haven't led product, but how have you maybe restructured

**[29:01]** your day, your thinking, what you spend time on,

**[29:05]** and was there anything surprising about the role?

**[29:12]** - I'm new enough to the role of CEO

**[29:14]** to still have the credibility to say this,

**[29:17]** that there's truly nothing like it

**[29:22]** and I don't believe anybody could really be ready

**[29:27]** because it is profoundly different.

**[29:30]** It's instantly different and you feel it

**[29:33]** and then you continue to learn

**[29:34]** how profoundly different it was than previous.

**[29:38]** I was particularly, and listen, I'm three months in.

**[29:42]** Again, it's day one, essentially.

**[29:45]** - But it happens quick, right?

**[29:46]** You don't really get to ease into it.

**[29:50]** - Yeah, yeah, I just learn something every day

**[29:53]** and my perspective continues to shift.

## 29:55 — The CEO job is external — and it's not how, it's who

**[29:55]** But I think that I was a little bit surprised

**[30:00]** by just how naturally so much more of the job is external

**[30:04]** than it is internal and that that just happens organically

**[30:09]** because people will introduce me to people

**[30:14]** 'cause they're like, "Hey, so-and-so could help you.

**[30:16]** "You should talk to them, so I'll talk to them

**[30:17]** "and see if they can help."

**[30:19]** And that might give me one little idea to hold on to

**[30:23]** and take forward.

**[30:26]** And then I think that it sounds,

**[30:30]** one guy he said to me that one of the big jobs

**[30:33]** is it's not how but who and figuring out the who.

**[30:39]** And so I've spent a lot of time

**[30:40]** where I was troubled about the who in certain areas,

**[30:46]** stressing about that.

**[30:47]** But once I've established the who in a certain area,

**[30:52]** okay, I'm not gonna worry about that as much

**[30:55]** because I know that they're worried about it

**[30:57]** and they're worried about the right things.

**[30:58]** So I'm gonna move over and worry about this.

**[31:01]** Now, I would like to get to a place

**[31:02]** and I believe that I'm just starting

**[31:05]** to open up the possibility where,

**[31:09]** where am I gonna be the absolute most effective

**[31:13]** in terms of this company's mission?

**[31:17]** And that is that I need to be out talking to people,

**[31:22]** to customers, to potential customers.

**[31:27]** Talking to you and all the people that are listening in,

**[31:31]** I want people to hear my voice and hear that

**[31:34]** there's a thing out here that there's a product

**[31:37]** that solves a problem.

**[31:38]** If you have that problem, we're gonna be your partners

**[31:40]** in solving it and that there's a human behind all that

**[31:44]** that's not, yeah, we wanna grow, we wanna be profitable.

**[31:49]** We can only do that by solving problems for customers.

**[31:52]** So the more I can be out and make that message known,

**[31:56]** the better.

**[31:59]** - Yeah, there are, I've been finding that interesting too,

**[32:03]** how external the job is

**[32:05]** and then finding your highest leverage point.

**[32:07]** And when you do have the right who,

**[32:09]** same thing I've struggled with too,

**[32:11]** but when you do have it, then you just feel like

**[32:13]** completely unlocked.

**[32:15]** Like, oh my gosh, I was spending maybe half my time on this

**[32:17]** and now I don't have to spend any time.

**[32:18]** And they're doing even better than what I

**[32:20]** would have come up with or done.

**[32:22]** Like there's no better feeling than that.

## 32:25 — Nine years at CallRail, no skipped levels

**[32:25]** Is there anything in your experience that you think

**[32:28]** in particular prepared you for this transition?

**[32:33]** Maybe some Mr. Miyagi moments,

**[32:35]** you didn't know you were CEO in training,

**[32:36]** but those moments actually were really strong proponents

**[32:42]** of helping you be successful.

**[32:44]** - If you'll indulge me, I've got a couple.

**[32:49]** One is that I had the same,

**[32:54]** I had almost the same manager for the nine years

**[32:57]** that I was at Colorado.

**[32:58]** And I started as product manager,

**[33:00]** product owner or something.

**[33:02]** It was so start-up at that point that they didn't,

**[33:04]** you know, I had like three different titles

**[33:07]** and nobody cared.

**[33:09]** And then when I left, I was the VP of products.

**[33:11]** And I had to go through every single,

**[33:15]** I had to complete every level of the video game,

**[33:17]** no skipping levels.

**[33:18]** There were no magic, no magic doors.

**[33:23]** And so, you know, getting to senior PM really mattered to me.

**[33:27]** And I tried really hard and getting to director.

**[33:31]** I was really wanting to get to director.

**[33:33]** And then they came up with an in-between role,

**[33:35]** lead product manager for I could get to director.

**[33:38]** And I was like, good grief.

**[33:39]** And so I had to go through that level and you know,

**[33:44]** and I didn't really, I resented it a little bit,

**[33:49]** but because I was so engaged in the challenge

**[33:52]** and I always felt like there was this thing

**[33:53]** that I could go and try to do and risk

**[33:56]** and see if I can do it at this level, you know,

**[33:59]** can I be successful that I enjoyed it.

**[34:02]** And, you know, at every stage of the way, you know,

**[34:06]** Ryan Johnson, he's out there in the podcast world.

**[34:09]** You know, Ryan, you know, made me do the work

**[34:13]** through every stage and now I know that if I had somehow

**[34:20]** gotten the free pass to executive land,

**[34:25]** I would not have been ready and I would have drowned.

**[34:30]** And so I have profound gratitude for Ryan

**[34:33]** for lots of different reasons, but that is a key one

**[34:35]** that he made sure I went through and did the work.

## 34:40 — From the Delta secretary pool to Delta management

**[34:40]** The other one is, you know, I had a grandmother

**[34:44]** who dropped out of high school when she was 16.

**[34:48]** She had an alcoholic dad that, you know,

**[34:50]** she was passed around between, you know, family members

**[34:53]** and she married my grandfather and had her first kid,

**[34:57]** you know, the next year.

**[35:00]** And, you know, because she needed to work,

**[35:03]** she got a job at Delta Airlines in the secretary pool

**[35:07]** and she worked so hard that she was one of the very early

**[35:11]** people in Delta management when she retired.

**[35:14]** And she was the breadwinner.

**[35:15]** She was the one who really brought home, you know,

**[35:18]** that made us a middle-class family.

**[35:20]** And I was largely raised by my grandparents.

**[35:22]** And so, you know, my grandmother's grit

**[35:28]** and determination and example

**[35:32]** of somebody who doesn't just have it handed to you

**[35:39]** but figures it out.

**[35:40]** I think that that DNA is in me,

**[35:44]** or at least to try to live up to that.

**[35:48]** And then the only other thing is, you know,

**[35:51]** everybody has adversity in their life.

**[35:53]** I've had a great deal of adversity in my past.

**[35:56]** And yeah, you know, I've had some pretty low moments

**[36:02]** in the last three months

**[36:03]** as I've tried to wrap my head around this.

**[36:05]** It's such highs and lows as you know.

**[36:07]** But, you know, in some of the lowest moments,

**[36:10]** I have to take a step back and realize, yeah,

**[36:12]** this is a big challenge.

**[36:14]** This thing in the moment is a huge challenge.

**[36:16]** But I have gotten through worse

**[36:18]** and life has gotten better, you know, from those points.

**[36:24]** So this will too, one way or another.

**[36:28]** I think it's so important, but difficult to do

**[36:32]** to have that perspective when you're getting challenges

**[36:35]** and almost being grateful for the challenges,

**[36:40]** being grateful for the adversity,

**[36:43]** knowing what it's doing in you,

**[36:44]** knowing it's making you stronger because you're right.

**[36:49]** If you get handed something

**[36:50]** or if you skip a few levels of that video game,

**[36:53]** eventually that's gonna catch up to you.

**[36:55]** If you haven't done the real work,

**[36:56]** if those things have been just handed to you,

**[36:58]** they may look like blessings,

**[37:00]** but they're actually stunting your growth in disguise.

**[37:05]** And I have found that too.

**[37:07]** Every time I've looked back and been like,

**[37:08]** oh wow, that was a really tough season

**[37:10]** or that was a really hard thing to get through.

**[37:13]** Or I thought I deserved a promotion earlier

**[37:18]** than it was given.

**[37:20]** And then you look back, it's like, oh, thank goodness

**[37:21]** that didn't happen because I wasn't ready.

**[37:25]** And this gave me the opportunity to get stronger,

**[37:27]** get prepared, and make sure the timing was right

**[37:31]** for when the opportunity presented itself.

**[37:33]** - Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree.

**[37:35]** And I do not mean to say that I was ready to be CEO.

**[37:41]** I don't know if anyone ever--

**[37:41]** - Maybe more ready, I don't know.

**[37:43]** - Yeah, I think it's better than nothing at all.

**[37:49]** I've been given an incredible opportunity

**[37:51]** and I'm very grateful to our board and founding team

**[37:56]** to entrust me with something that they built

**[38:01]** and they're deeply cared for.

**[38:03]** Whether every gambit has been successful,

**[38:07]** whether there are highs and lows

**[38:09]** that they've all gone through,

**[38:11]** it's still their life's work in a lot of ways.

**[38:14]** And so I wanna be a good steward to it.

**[38:17]** - Well, Mixmax has an incredible legacy

**[38:20]** with some real true fans.

**[38:22]** There's few products out there

**[38:25]** where you have people as zealous about it

**[38:28]** and have added so much value

**[38:30]** and probably made bigger impacts in their lives

**[38:33]** than you even realize,

**[38:35]** just through leveraging the tool for building their business.

**[38:39]** So I think it's a really exciting time.

## 38:44 — What's next: making the whole story resonate

**[38:44]** And with that fantastic legacy,

**[38:46]** what do you think is coming next

**[38:47]** for the team and your customers?

**[38:51]** - Yeah, so going back to the fact

**[38:54]** that it's a great product and it solves a real problem,

**[38:58]** it's all about the story

**[38:59]** and telling a story that resonates and is true,

**[39:02]** it resonates because it's true.

**[39:05]** And that means that when your co-founder tells somebody,

**[39:09]** "Hey, you gotta try Mixmax,"

**[39:11]** and they come to the website,

**[39:13]** and that website needs to resonate

**[39:16]** with what they've been told.

**[39:17]** And that hasn't been true for a while.

**[39:20]** So gotta fix that.

**[39:23]** When they sign up

**[39:24]** and they go through that initial onboarding experience,

**[39:26]** the things that we ask them

**[39:28]** or direct them to do in the onboarding

**[39:29]** has to make sense and resonate

**[39:33]** with the problem that they are there to solve,

**[39:34]** not what we hope that they may want us to solve one day.

**[39:40]** The pricing and the packaging needs to resonate

**[39:44]** and coalesce with it's solving the problem.

**[39:50]** And so it's worth this.

**[39:52]** And if you are using Mixmax

**[39:59]** and your business is growing because of,

**[40:02]** not because of Mixmax,

**[40:04]** it's growing because of you and your hard work,

**[40:05]** we're here to help.

**[40:08]** But if we're helping, then you're gonna use us more

**[40:11]** and you're gonna pay us more.

**[40:13]** And that's a worthwhile investment.

**[40:15]** And we grow together and our interests are aligned.

**[40:18]** So that is not something that I could,

**[40:22]** I wish that I could tell everybody

**[40:24]** that's gonna listen to this and go to mixmax.ai.

**[40:30]** And that's a whole other thing, AI.

**[40:31]** But go to Mixmax.ai and they sign up

**[40:34]** and they're gonna be like,

**[40:36]** there's gonna be, you might be like,

**[40:38]** I don't totally get, this doesn't match.

**[40:41]** And that's because we still are doing a lot of work

**[40:43]** in the first inning to make the story match.

**[40:46]** But the promises and is true

**[40:48]** is that the actual product does its job

**[40:51]** and it does its job really well

**[40:53]** and it will scale with you and your team.

**[40:55]** And we just have to,

**[40:56]** that's what the team's working really hard on

**[40:58]** and around the clock is to get that resonance

**[41:02]** from this conversation all the way through

**[41:05]** somebody becoming a raving fan

**[41:08]** and telling their friends and their coworkers

**[41:10]** to go and buy Mixmax.

**[41:13]** - Yeah, and I think aligning that messaging

**[41:15]** but also building that evangelism

**[41:16]** and then how do you leverage that?

**[41:19]** Okay, you have all these fans.

**[41:22]** How can you put them on the great commission

**[41:24]** to get Mixmax in front of everyone they know?

**[41:28]** Are there any tactics you all are thinking about?

**[41:31]** Of course, making sure like,

**[41:33]** hey, once they have told someone,

**[41:34]** let's make sure likely what they said is gonna match up.

**[41:37]** But are there any other unique ways

**[41:40]** you can tap into that group

**[41:42]** that are just such big fans of the product?

## 41:44 — Referral programs and agency partnerships

**[41:44]** - Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up

**[41:46]** because it's another area of like,

**[41:48]** lean in where you have strengths

**[41:50]** and you're not even trying.

**[41:51]** Like, what if we tried?

**[41:52]** What if we tried to make it easy

**[41:54]** for people to tell others about Mixmax

**[41:57]** and it benefit everyone?

**[42:00]** Those are things that we have talked about this week

**[42:02]** and last week and are working towards

**[42:05]** how do we make a referral program

**[42:09]** that incentivizes that behavior

**[42:12]** that's already naturally there?

**[42:14]** How do we go to agencies

**[42:18]** and give them a share of the success

**[42:24]** if they make Mixmax a part of their toolkit

**[42:28]** that they bring to every one of their clients?

**[42:31]** So those are things, I wish that,

**[42:35]** be careful what you wish for.

**[42:37]** I wish I had unlimited money

**[42:38]** and I could do it all at once.

**[42:39]** It's not my fingers.

**[42:41]** But the video game has levels for a reason.

**[42:46]** So it's one thing at a time.

**[42:47]** It's what I told my team.

**[42:52]** I took the core of our team to Prague

**[42:57]** 'cause we have a lot of folks in Europe in the end of June.

**[43:01]** And this was like the first kind of summit of,

**[43:05]** okay, what are we gonna do here?

**[43:08]** And my instincts going in were

**[43:10]** I think I need to get people together in a room.

**[43:12]** I don't know exactly.

**[43:14]** The agenda for this is half-baked.

**[43:16]** I have an idea how I'm gonna go in.

**[43:20]** But I don't know what the outcomes are gonna be

**[43:22]** but we gotta start somewhere.

**[43:23]** And we had an incredibly productive and amazing,

**[43:26]** some of the best work I've ever been a part of,

**[43:28]** just a few days of work on this team.

**[43:30]** And what I told them at the end is like,

**[43:32]** I know it seems like a lot.

**[43:33]** There's a lot to go and do

**[43:34]** and the team is small and lean.

## 43:36 — Bird by bird

**[43:36]** But there's a great book by the writer Anne Lamont

**[43:40]** and she's a great writer

**[43:43]** and she wrote a book about writing.

**[43:45]** You know you're a good writer

**[43:46]** if you can get away with writing a book about writing.

**[43:49]** And it talks in the name of it's bird by bird.

**[43:53]** And it comes from a story of when she was a kid

**[43:55]** and her brother had procrastinated on a book report,

**[43:59]** a research paper on birds,

**[44:01]** different birds of like the state of California or something.

**[44:04]** I'm not getting that right.

**[44:05]** But lots and lots of birds to write about.

**[44:08]** And it's due tomorrow.

**[44:10]** And he's now, the reality is catching up with him

**[44:13]** and he's stressed out and he's crying.

**[44:15]** Like, what am I gonna do?

**[44:15]** How am I gonna get all this done?

**[44:17]** And their dad's answer was,

**[44:18]** you'll get it done bird by bird.

**[44:20]** And I thought, that's like, that's just,

**[44:22]** that's the thing that you gotta lean in on team is like,

**[44:25]** there's only one way and it's bird by bird.

**[44:29]** It's one thing at a time and you know.

**[44:31]** So for us, we gotta get the homepage right.

**[44:33]** We gotta get the pricing and packaging right.

**[44:35]** But then we're gonna, the referral programs

**[44:38]** and the agency partnerships and all those things,

**[44:40]** that's to come because it's, like I said,

**[44:43]** it's already where we have strength

**[44:44]** and so we should lean into it.

**[44:47]** - I love that.

**[44:48]** And I think those little steps stack up

**[44:52]** and compound in the long run,

**[44:53]** as long as you're staying diligent with that.

**[44:55]** And I wanna go back to something that you said

**[44:57]** when you said, be careful what you wish for

**[44:59]** and you wish you had unlimited resources.

**[45:01]** I've gone through that thought exercise

**[45:02]** on the head a few times.

**[45:03]** So we've been in business five years

**[45:07]** and I remember in the first couple years,

**[45:09]** I just was like, man, I wish we had some capital.

**[45:13]** I wish we raised, like there's all these things

**[45:15]** I wanna do, I know they would work.

**[45:17]** And I am so happy I didn't have access to a dollar

**[45:21]** because I would have just lit it on fire

**[45:23]** in the wrong direction.

**[45:24]** And I think being forced to do it the hard way,

**[45:30]** forced me to focus on the right things.

**[45:35]** And I think, like you said,

**[45:36]** there's levels in the video game for a reason.

**[45:39]** And I think another thing I'm grateful for,

**[45:42]** I'm grateful for those challenges

**[45:44]** because it forced the focus

**[45:45]** and I think we're a much better company

**[45:47]** because of it today.

**[45:48]** - Yeah, well, congrats, congrats.

**[45:52]** I hope, I'm excited to sit in your seat one day.

**[45:56]** And look, it's not day one

**[46:01]** and there's already a great customer base and everything.

**[46:05]** So this particular challenge feels big

**[46:08]** but to get to the other side of it,

**[46:12]** to the next challenge, to the next level

**[46:14]** will be a great thing to arrive to.

**[46:20]** - Well, bird by bird, I think I'm gonna be saying that

**[46:23]** to myself and my team for quite some time.

**[46:25]** I appreciate you sharing that.

**[46:26]** - Absolutely.

**[46:29]** - Well, Jason, I really appreciate

**[46:30]** you sharing everything you did.

**[46:32]** I appreciate the transparency, the vulnerability

**[46:35]** and also really appreciate what you're doing,

**[46:38]** taking a brand that has so many big fans.

**[46:41]** I named a few personal ones of my own.

**[46:43]** I know people who just love Mixmax

**[46:46]** and I know are all rooting for you to succeed.

**[46:50]** And I know you'll keep delivering

**[46:51]** immense value to your customers.

## 46:54 — Virality is not an acquisition strategy

**[46:54]** And I think it's a really interesting cautionary tale

**[46:59]** for people listening to make sure,

**[47:01]** like, hey, you're gonna go through these bouts of virality

**[47:04]** but your virality is not an acquisition strategy.

**[47:06]** So during those moments, if you can also stay disciplined

**[47:10]** on your go-to-market motions and stack that up,

**[47:12]** that'll set you up for long-term success.

**[47:14]** So anybody listening to that, just be weary.

**[47:17]** If you're in a really good season,

**[47:20]** just make sure you're preparing for when a storm comes

**[47:23]** or when some of that virality slows down.

**[47:25]** But I appreciate everything you brought.

**[47:28]** I think I learned so much on the call.

**[47:29]** Bird by bird is gonna be my new phrase.

**[47:33]** And before I let you go though,

**[47:36]** anything you wanna leave listeners,

**[47:38]** especially if they're customers of Mixmax with?

## 47:41 — The MCP rollout

**[47:41]** - Yeah, we're rolling out our MCP

**[47:45]** and I can tell you that it's truly,

**[47:48]** if Mixmax was already the easiest to set up

**[47:51]** and the quickest to get to value,

**[47:54]** the MCP is that times the power of LLMs.

**[48:00]** So you'll be able to get that outreach going,

**[48:02]** making sure you don't miss your follow-ups

**[48:04]** and keep turning that outreach into relationships

**[48:09]** with an MCP that'll let you pull in your people,

**[48:17]** enrich it, splice it, dice it.

**[48:19]** You can build the entire sequence right there

**[48:24]** and send it off right from your AI client

**[48:28]** and you'll have the confidence that

**[48:32]** because of Mixmax's infrastructure,

**[48:36]** that those communications are gonna get delivered

**[48:40]** and you won't be spamming people

**[48:42]** and getting banned from inboxes and all that kind of stuff.

**[48:46]** - Which is absolutely what you don't wanna do

**[48:48]** when you're starting and running your business.

**[48:50]** (laughing)

**[48:53]** I love it.

**[48:54]** Well, really excited for your customers

**[48:56]** to get their hands on the MCP,

**[48:59]** combine the power of LLMs, like you said,

**[49:01]** with the security compliance, reliability of Mixmax

**[49:06]** and can't wait to see what you guys do.

**[49:08]** I'm looking forward to following your journey personally

**[49:11]** as well as what you do at Mixmax

**[49:13]** and then hopefully we can have another check-in

**[49:16]** to see how things are going.

**[49:17]** - Yeah, that would be a lot of fun.

**[49:19]** - Awesome, well, thank you, Jason.

**[49:21]** - Thank you, this has been a blast.