---
title: "A Decade in One CRO Seat: Make More Money Than You Spend"
episode: 143
podcast: "The LeanScale Podcast"
publisher: "LeanScale"
guest: "David Cady"
guest_title: "Chief Revenue Officer"
date_published: 2026-10-20
date_modified: 2026-10-21
duration: 00:57:05
word_count: 10405
topics: ["sales-leadership", "gtm-strategy", "brand-positioning"]
canonical_url: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/david-cady-virtuous-make-more-money-than-you-spend/
source: "LeanScale Knowledge Hub — https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge"
license: "Free to quote and cite with attribution to The LeanScale Podcast."
---

# A Decade in One CRO Seat: Make More Money Than You Spend — Full Transcript

> Episode 143 of The LeanScale Podcast, with David Cady.
> Published October 20, 2026 · 00:57:05 · 10405 words.
> Machine-transcribed and **not diarized** — speaker attribution is inferred, so verify
> attribution against the audio before quoting a specific person.
> Structured breakdown: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/david-cady-virtuous-make-more-money-than-you-spend/

## 00:00 — Intro: two kids from Ahwatukee and Mountain Pointe

**[0:00]** A brand, we could probably argue for an hour, like, what does brand even mean, and how do we

**[0:05]** conceptualize that? Like, brand for me is always like, what do people say about your company when

**[0:10]** you're not in the room? My guest today is David Cady, Chief Revenue Officer at Virtuous, the

**[0:16]** fundraising CRM that more than 10,000 nonprofits run on, from Habitat for Humanity to Ronald

**[0:23]** McDonald House. Before software, he taught high school English and he left the classroom for a

**[0:28]** sales job that paid $8,000 less than the teaching day did, spending his first year in the industry

**[0:35]** on food stamps while the housing market collapsed around him. It was a burn the ships, like, I had

**[0:40]** no other option than having to go home and not make the mortgage, right? The average tenure of a CRO,

**[0:45]** you're pretty lucky if you make it 18 months, but you've been here over a decade. There is and has

**[0:51]** been a lot of noise generated over the last 10 years. You were able to do crappy email outbounds

**[0:59]** and get replies. I've always said the best decision I ever made with LeanScale is not raising

**[1:06]** any outside capital because I know exactly what I wanted to do if I had capital and it would have

**[1:14]** driven the business right into a brick wall. My CEO was great because he just says, we want to make

**[1:19]** more money than we spent. We want to treat this like a business. That's a real business. I've

**[1:24]** always thought change is inevitable. Bring it on. David, we spent the first 10 minutes of our call

## 01:38 — What staying in Phoenix cost, and what it was worth

**[1:39]** realizing we grew up in the same neighborhood, went to the same high school. And then you said

**[1:43]** something that really raised check out to me that Phoenix is a very weird place to be an operator,

**[1:48]** especially in tech, but you built a 200 person company here anyway without leaving. What has

**[1:54]** staying in the desert actually cost you and what has it been worth? It's great to be here, Anthony,

**[2:02]** excited to spend some time and dig through these things. Phoenix is a fun place to grow a company.

**[2:09]** The one thing I think that's special about here is everyone is actually here fairly intentionally.

**[2:17]** I do think that a lot of this community decides to put roots down here, whether it's for family,

**[2:23]** location, weather, opportunity. The hard part about a lot of this is just the fact that

**[2:29]** the community itself is really dispersed. And so you have a ton of people who are really

**[2:35]** intentional about what they want to do with their lives and their jobs. But there's not a lot of

**[2:41]** central education, tech environment, and investment that sort of brings everyone

**[2:48]** together. So you kind of have to find everyone. And honestly, like you and I, we stumbled across

**[2:55]** each other doing a lot of the same work for a long time together, growing up, going to the same

**[3:01]** neighborhood, same high school, and just hadn't crossed paths before. And so I think that's

**[3:07]** something that just requires a ton of intentionality. So from a hiring standpoint, it's not like I can

**[3:13]** go to this one career fair, go to this one website, or just we have a line of people out the door. You

**[3:19]** have to be intentional. The thing, though, like I said, that has been super impactful is everyone

**[3:26]** is pretty focused on what they want to do, why they want to be here, and does have this sort of

**[3:32]** passion to build something that's long lasting. There's a lot of Phoenix is a community where a

**[3:37]** lot of people have moved here over time, and are looking to plant roots and do come here with the

**[3:42]** specific reason. So that's been a cool part about building here. The other thing is just the nature

**[3:48]** of being a flyover state. There's a ton of pressure on the coasts when you build to sort of do it

**[3:57]** unnaturally. And you have a lot of pressure to do it really, really quickly. So sometimes you make

**[4:03]** bad decisions, quick decisions that you could regret. And he's sort of like the urgency,

**[4:09]** the tyranny of now takes over where for us, it was always about like, how do we build a durable

**[4:15]** business that's here for the long run, which I think is something that Phoenix is priding itself

**[4:22]** in. And again, just being a flyover state, like we wanted to build something that was here for

**[4:27]** the long run. Yeah, I've noticed two of those things too. I've always said the best decision

**[4:34]** I ever made with LeanScale is not raising any outside capital because I know exactly what I

**[4:42]** wanted to do if I had capital and it would have driven the business right into a brick wall.

**[4:47]** So the best thing for me would have been to have to build things the hard way,

**[4:52]** slow things down and then find out what works before trying to grow a little bit quicker. And

**[4:57]** also on the talent front, there's not a lot of competition if you're the business for some of

## 05:02 — "Make more money than we spend"

**[5:03]** the best talent and so much incredible talent comes from California comes from New York comes

**[5:10]** from Chicago to plant roots here because they're saying, Hey, it's more important maybe for me to

**[5:16]** have a good place for my family. But you still have exceptional talent. You just have to go find them.

**[5:22]** Yeah, you got to find them. And I think that's why creating a good brand and creating a company

**[5:26]** that is attractive to people is so important. I mean, you mentioned raising money definitely

**[5:32]** comes with its own set of strings that you have to work across. And, you know, we've been really

**[5:38]** fortunate to have a set of investors who have a long term mentality. And every time I talk to my

**[5:43]** CEO, you know, there's every 18 months, generally in the venture world, what's valuable or what's

**[5:52]** meaningful and important and business valuation tends to change. And so I'm always every 18 months,

**[5:57]** okay, okay, is it rule of 40 this time? Is it magic number this time? Like, what do what are

**[6:00]** we trying to hit to make sure that we're on the right track? And my CEO was great because he just

**[6:07]** says we want to make more money than we spend. We want to treat this like a business that's a real

**[6:12]** business. And in reality, if we do those basic principles, right, whatever the tide is at this

**[6:19]** time, whatever the market is saying, like, it will always come back around to those things. And so

**[6:25]** in some ways, it freed us up to just say, let's try to imagine that the money is not there. And

**[6:30]** always creates a lot of unnatural pressure. When you have that extra money, and it's just let's

**[6:34]** just make more money than we spend, let's treat this like a regular business. Is it really that

**[6:38]** easy? Because I feel like I feel like you have to go back and dust off the calculus books sometimes

**[6:44]** to understand how investors are valuing companies. But I think you're right, the companies that,

**[6:50]** hey, if you're growing, and you're profitable, you own your own destiny.

**[6:55]** Yeah, it's it's tough. Like, I know, I equate it to, you know, you've got to be a surgeon and have

**[7:02]** a scalpel every time you make a decision. At the same time, like you don't have that much time to

**[7:08]** measure twice, you get to maybe measure once. And then you can cut once, but you do have to

**[7:13]** have a bias for action. I think, you know, it does create just boundaries that you have to

**[7:19]** live within and be okay with. But yeah, it's it's the pressure is important to keep you moving.

**[7:28]** And sort of like removing that, that safety net is important to continually take enough

**[7:35]** calculated risk to get past the inertia that obviously happens. I mean, it's so tough to build

**[7:41]** a company anyway, when you've got black swan events that seem to happen every year. At this point,

**[7:47]** like you have to keep moving enough. So calculated risk is still important. But it does keep you

**[7:53]** smart. You can't do dumb things. No, you definitely have to make the bets that have the best outcomes

**[8:01]** in the long run. And I am very curious to go a little bit deeper on one of the biggest bets

## 08:09 — From the classroom to cold calling in the 2008 crash

**[8:09]** that you made on yourself on your career. I would love if you could take us back to that moment

**[8:15]** when you were teaching, and then decided to make a monumental change. During one of those black swan

**[8:24]** events where the entire economy felt like it was just collapsing around everybody.

**[8:29]** Yeah, a lot of my early journey was kind of born out of necessity and had to learn a lot along the

**[8:37]** way. You know, when I graduated college, I thought I was going to change the world by teaching was

**[8:43]** going to work with students. A lot of what I love to do was more around the humanities and philosophy,

**[8:50]** like, although I taught English, I was always fascinated with like the why did we make the

**[8:54]** decisions that we do? You know, how do people think? So I love that part of my job. But life

**[9:00]** always has a way of sort of throwing a wrench in things. It's been a while since I was teaching,

**[9:05]** I always know how long it's been because it's the same age as my oldest son, who's going to be 19

**[9:10]** soon. And so my wife and I got pregnant and we both looked at each other. This was after I walked

**[9:15]** into the HR office at the high school I worked at, told them we were having a kid and they let me

**[9:22]** know that it was going to be $1,200 to add him on to our insurance. And I looked at my paycheck and

**[9:27]** I went, that's half of what I make. Like, there was just an impossibility that I could keep doing

**[9:33]** this. And so yeah, I had to go home and have the conversation like, I don't think I can do this

**[9:38]** anymore. And at that point, kind of just took stock of like, well, what am I good at? What do I like?

**[9:44]** I've always been kind of a nerd and a geek. I grew up around my dad's computer and 85 IBM and,

**[9:49]** you know, tinkering and MS-DOS grew up changing graphics cards and CPUs and memory in the computer

**[9:54]** to keep up with the latest, you know, PC game. So I love that. And, you know, took that and sort

**[10:00]** of blended it with, well, I like people, like understanding what makes them tick. And just pure

**[10:05]** happenstance that like a company was coming into town at the time that was hiring like 30 account

**[10:10]** managers company with CDW. And it's very much a cold calling, 100 dials a day kind of company.

**[10:16]** I started then right at the end of 2007, six months in, right, housing market collapsed,

**[10:28]** all of that craziness started to happen. And then IT budgets froze across the board. No one was

**[10:33]** spending a dime on anything. So we've got a new baby in the world, new job. And I actually ended

**[10:40]** up making less that first year of sales than I did teaching. And, you know, you mentioned the

**[10:46]** story, like our family was living on food stamps for a couple of years, just trying to make do.

**[10:51]** The thing that honestly was a big part of that journey, like there, I, it was a burn the ships.

**[10:57]** Like I had no other option. There was nothing I could do besides just keep moving forward.

**[11:04]** And so 100 cold calls a day seemed a whole lot better than having to go home and not make the

**[11:10]** mortgage. Right. And I looked at like my peers and what people were doing. And especially in sales,

**[11:15]** there was so much like 90% of this is controllable. It's my activity. It's my attitudes, my output.

**[11:22]** And I liked that sense of control, especially during a time when everything just felt

**[11:27]** so wildly out of control. And so kept my head down for two, three years. And eventually, right,

**[11:34]** the economy starts to correct, start to make more money, start to come out the other side.

**[11:41]** And then from there, like my career shifted more into software and spent the better part of a

**[11:48]** decade after that. And software and enterprise software and larger companies doing sort of

**[11:53]** enterprise transformational software. And that, that's sort of where my love of like,

**[11:58]** like selling change, working with software, because it was so transformational to businesses,

**[12:04]** like understanding what made people tick and like why they would do things. I loved that part.

**[12:10]** And then yeah, a lot of that time was sort of the heyday of Silicon Valley and SAS software and

**[12:15]** vertical SAS was coming about. And so I worked for a few companies where I had a chance to

**[12:20]** just do a lot of different things with cool startups. And I started to get the startup bug

**[12:24]** from there. That was sort of pre virtuous. But yeah, sales was a, it was a forcing function,

**[12:30]** like I had no other choice. And you do a lot when you have nowhere else to go.

**[12:35]** I think some of the times those are the biggest motivators and probably the only environment

**[12:40]** where you may even find success because when you don't have any other option, you get full focus,

**[12:46]** completely narrow the aperture. It's really the only time you can, you can make certain things

**[12:51]** like that happen. And I, I've always loved sales because, Hey, it doesn't necessarily matter who

**[12:58]** you know, who you are. There's a number on a scoreboard. And if you're at the top, then you're

**[13:03]** always going to be doing well. Yeah. A hundred percent. It definitely beat, uh, being homeless

**[13:10]** and not being able to buy groceries. Like it just the perspective shift that you, that I had, I mean,

**[13:17]** it wasn't easy. I always say, you know, sales and just this world, like it's simple,

**[13:22]** but it's not easy. And I think that is why this profession is often a hard thing for most

**[13:29]** people. There's a lot of things you have to like give up, overcome, be okay. That you're challenged

**[13:34]** with to be successful long-term. Yeah. If anybody's ever asked, I've compared it to diet and exercise,

**[13:39]** like everybody knows what to do, eat less, more fruit, vegetables, and go to the gym. But it's

**[13:46]** very, very hard to consistently do it every single day for years and years and years and be a

**[13:52]** professional at it. Yep. So going through that career, you start to gain lots of experience

**[13:59]** in the sales industry, in the role. How did you find the virtuous team and what made you

## 14:00 — The lunch that turned into Virtuous

**[14:10]** make that next leap? So I have always just loved entrepreneurship. I think just even that early

**[14:18]** sales bug was like, I love the fact that I could, whatever I put in, which is what I got out. And

**[14:24]** then really got enamored with the startup world. Again, in the Bay Area, I worked for a lot of Bay

**[14:29]** Area companies, pre-virtuous. So I had actually wanted to start something of my own. And I knew

**[14:36]** our founder, been a longtime friend of mine, our founder, Gabe Cooper. And so I took him out to

**[14:41]** lunch really with this idea of, hey, I'm thinking of doing something myself. Am I crazy? Should I

**[14:49]** be doing this? What should I be thinking about? And that lunch really turned into, well, I'm

**[14:55]** doing this thing called virtuous. Gabe is an engineer product guy by trade. So he's sort of

**[14:59]** like the opposite of what I am in many respects. And that really turned into this idea of like,

**[15:05]** hey, virtuous is an idea. It's really getting off the ground coming out of beta. And he need to go

**[15:13]** to market help. And for me, I'm like, well, my wife will be happy because I don't have to mortgage

**[15:18]** our house and take this massive risk. And then I get to come into a company that has a lot of the

**[15:24]** things where, you know, are the things that I'm not necessarily gifted or good at, which at that

**[15:29]** point, like hadn't written a line of code in my life, but loved product, loved tech. And so it was

**[15:34]** able to step in early days of virtuous really with just the only idea of like, I got to sell this

**[15:41]** thing. Like, that's it. Like, there was no real title or job description that was like, keep the

**[15:48]** lights on, sell the thing, and let's make payroll. Early on, we had angel investing in friends and

**[15:55]** family. And so we had enough runway to keep going. But really, we were always very lean in terms of

**[16:00]** how we thought how much we raised. And again, back to the make more money than you spend. The whole

**[16:05]** thing was like, hey, let's make sure we can hit payroll with what we sell. Had a couple fun stories

**[16:11]** with that and Christmas time and making payroll and all that. But yeah, it was it was a lot more

**[16:16]** of an entrepreneurial journey to jump in and just say, hey, I want to grow something. I want to build

**[16:20]** something. I really just care about solving interesting problems with people I like. And

**[16:27]** that was the early days of virtuous, about six or seven of us at the time when I started.

**[16:33]** I have to ask, what was the idea that you were bringing to that lunch? And what were you thinking

**[16:38]** at the time? Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest, like, I kind of went into that lunch, potentially hoping

**[16:43]** I could like inception gave enough and plant this idea enough, like maybe there was something there.

**[16:50]** Right. Like, I respect the guy a ton. He's done well. This is not his first company. And so

**[16:55]** in many ways, you know, working with him was something that that was ultimately a goal of

**[17:01]** mine. I think I had zero clue, though, like my experience had been like large scale sales

**[17:07]** organizations, big tech companies, even right, the Silicon Valley startups that I had worked for,

**[17:13]** you know, startups in like the, you know, I joined with a couple hundred people. And at that point,

**[17:20]** like they were burning money, like there was no tomorrow. So I don't think I had the even the

**[17:23]** frame of mind for like what this would actually mean to build something durable and with limited,

**[17:30]** like with a limited resource pool. You know, I'm just like, I'm just gonna start cold calling,

**[17:35]** I bet this will work. So I had zero clue. Honestly, going in, I think the thing that

**[17:43]** has saved me and sort of given me the longevity is just adaptability. Like I had no preconceived

**[17:50]** notions, no, no desire to like be a specific title role. I'm like, I just want to see if we

## 17:56 — A decade in one CRO seat: how GTM changed

**[17:58]** can build something. And whatever was on the table, like however that looked like I was,

**[18:04]** we're open to do whatever it took. One of the things that I love about your story is

**[18:13]** the dedication to this mission that you've had and the tenure that you've had along it.

**[18:18]** I mean, the average tenure of a CRO, you're pretty lucky if you make it 18 months.

**[18:22]** That's a pretty good run as a CRO and most Silicon Valley, BC back SaaS companies,

**[18:29]** but you've been here over a decade. And one of the things I'd love to know,

**[18:35]** because I think it's, I think it's hard to tell when someone's only done a few stints,

**[18:41]** but they haven't really like dug their heels in. How has go to market changed over this decade?

**[18:48]** Because your same product, same solution, same market. There are so many constants in your story,

**[18:56]** but I know there must have been so many times where you had to adapt and iterate.

**[19:00]** How has go to market changed over the last 10 years?

**[19:04]** Yeah, it's a, it's a great question. There's a few things I think are probably not going to say

**[19:09]** anything that everyone doesn't already know. One, there, there is and has been a lot of noise

**[19:15]** generated over the last 10 years. Early days of virtuous, like you were able to do crappy

**[19:22]** email outbounds and get replies, right? You could do crappy outbound and you could get replies and

**[19:30]** love Mark Roberge, love the sales acceleration formula, but a lot of the whole kind of early

**[19:35]** Salesforce HubSpot days where you just like pick an ICP, write a script, do an outbound sequence

**[19:40]** and go very cost ineffective today. And so many people, especially in the world that I sell into

**[19:47]** are like highly, highly trust driven. They want to know that they can believe you. They have to

**[19:54]** believe it from like your brand, which takes a whole long time to build. Like that's not an

**[20:00]** overnight thing. It's a multi-year progress process. They can, they want to hear from their peers.

**[20:06]** They want to know other people who look like them in their world, like that they are doing,

**[20:13]** you know, the thing you're asking. And then partnerships is another big thing to create

**[20:17]** trust. So for us, I think we sort of tried a lot of different things, casted a really wide net early

**[20:25]** on. And part of that was out of necessity. Cause it's like, we just got to keep the lights on.

**[20:28]** If someone will write us a check, that's great. And so, you know, we were getting customers big

**[20:34]** and small all over the place. And that was just sort of a ad hoc spray and pray approach just to

**[20:39]** get like names in the door. What we learned over time, especially in, and this is true when we're

**[20:45]** trying to be really cost-effective, right? That was a thing for us is like, if I have a dollar to

**[20:51]** spend, I kind of need to know that I can earn it back at least within 12 months. Like our CAC ratio,

**[20:58]** like we were maybe spending a dollar 50 to a dollar 80 per dollar of ARR CAC payback periods,

**[21:05]** usually 15 to 18 months. Like, but we tried to drive that down more and more. So knowing that

**[21:10]** those are the limitations, we really had to make sure like every shot counted. So partnerships

## 21:12 — Partnerships, community, and why product comes first

**[21:16]** community, uh, was a huge part of our success in the first, um, several years, honestly, still till

**[21:25]** today. I still think that's actually a really underlooked portion of go to market. Um, just

**[21:32]** in general is partnerships and networking and community. I think there's a lot of talk today

**[21:37]** about, yes, we have to do that because there's so much noise with AI. There's so much going out.

**[21:40]** There's so much stuff online, but doing that just takes time and it takes being in market with

**[21:47]** customers. And I just don't know if there's still quite an appetite to do that really well. I am

**[21:53]** very fortunate to have an amazing product. Uh, there's a lot of great, great go to market ideas.

**[22:02]** Like I'm, I'm a firm believer in two things. Like you have to be fundamentally about the numbers,

**[22:08]** right? Sales go to market funnel math, whatever you call it. Like it's fundamentally just a math

**[22:13]** equation you have to solve. Know your inputs and outputs. It's like physics. Like you can't break

**[22:19]** the law of physics as hard as you try. Just do that first. So you have to know like, Hey,

**[22:25]** have all these strategies, what are our conversions? What do we expect to find? Did we do it? Yes or

**[22:30]** no. At the end of the day, if you get on a phone with someone and you get those meetings and your

**[22:34]** product sucks and your messaging sucks and you're like value prop sucks. Like nobody will care. And

**[22:41]** I think that is something I actually am a firm believer in. Like sales marketing needs to know

**[22:48]** the product and the product has to be really good. Um, I can't out go to market. There's no

**[22:55]** trick I can do to win a bunch of customers if the product is bad. And even if you do,

**[23:02]** ultimately they'll churn. And as a CRO, my job is not just new revenue. It's

**[23:07]** retained revenue and long-term revenue. And so you have to hold those intention.

**[23:13]** I think a lot of people overlooked that and overlooked the magnitude of it. And one example

**[23:18]** I give, sometimes I use this if somebody's considering going into sales, but they're not

**[23:23]** really sure about the profession. And I think sometimes for people early in their career,

**[23:28]** it might get a bad rap. And I say, you know, what I think would be probably the coolest job in the

**[23:33]** entire world is if there was a sure, like full proof cure to cancer and you were the sales rep,

**[23:44]** repping that product, how incredible would it be to go find all the people that need help and get

**[23:50]** them connected with a product that can save their lives? Now, I know we're not usually saving lives

**[23:54]** with software, um, but we are, we are solving problems and we're, we're helping people's

**[23:59]** careers. We're helping people provide for their families, all kinds of things that actually

**[24:04]** unlock when you do this well. And I think it's a very, very cool thing when you have an excellent

**[24:10]** product. If you're selling a product that isn't competitive, doesn't work, doesn't do a lot of

**[24:14]** things, isn't solving a real pain, that can be one of the worst jobs in the world. Yeah.

**[24:20]** Yeah. It's actually like part of our, my recruiting strategy. And when I think about

**[24:24]** good salespeople, if you can sell a product at a second or third tier product company,

**[24:30]** you're probably exceptional at sales. Um, you know what, it's really easy to sell sales force.

**[24:36]** It's really easy to sell these products that have like all the market share in the world

**[24:41]** and basically just have enough demand that you're getting pulled into market. Anyway,

**[24:45]** you know, go to market at open AP open AI and, and, and anthropic right now, like you're kind

**[24:50]** of just drafting off of the existing pipeline and signing orders. Now I'm not taking away from

**[24:56]** those teams, but it's hard when you don't have a class leading product. So, you know, if I'm

**[25:02]** thinking about companies, I want to be at like, that is the number one thing that I need to

**[25:07]** understand before I go somewhere. And then, then you, then you have great go to market plans that

**[25:12]** you can work with. I'd like to go back to one of the things that you mentioned, another area,

## 25:14 — What brand really is, and Responsive Fundraising

**[25:18]** I think that's overlooked as well. And I think your, your tenure gives a really unique insight

**[25:24]** into how to do this building a brand. You mentioned it's not something you can do overnight. It's

**[25:30]** often not something you can force. What are the major components in your mind of brand building

**[25:36]** and operationally tactically? I know it might look a little different depending on the company,

**[25:40]** but what are some principles that you can follow to help build an incredible brand?

**[25:45]** Yeah, you know, brand is, you could, we could probably argue for an hour, like what does brand

**[25:49]** even mean? And how do we conceptualize that? Like brand for me is always like, what do people say

**[25:55]** about your company when you're not in the room? I like to think about brands that I personally

**[26:01]** love myself. Like I'm a, I'm a big car guy. I've recently over the last few years got into Rivian's

**[26:07]** and a big part of that was like, I believed that when I bought that car, I would be in the places

**[26:15]** that the ads showed me. Like I would be in the mountains camping. I would be with my kids. I

**[26:18]** would sort of like live this amazing adventure. And I'm like, I have to have this thing because

**[26:24]** I believe that's what I will be. So I do think that there's something about brand that is

**[26:30]** very like much less about the product. And it's what you believe you will be where your company

**[26:36]** will be, or you'll sort of like the tribe or community you'll be a part of once you're,

**[26:41]** once you've bought that. In tech, I think there's several ways to do that. Like one,

**[26:46]** it does take time. Like you have to show up consistently and do what you say over time.

**[26:51]** Like it's not a slogan or a gimmick or a tagline. It really does have to be something your team

**[26:56]** shows up and sort of like delivers time and time again. The thing for us, like we actually spent

**[27:01]** some time doing category creation. I know category creation, especially today, there's sort of pros

**[27:08]** and cons. Can you do it? Is it a real thing? But I still think it sort of dovetails into this idea

**[27:14]** of brand. So with virtuous, we kind of coined this term responsive fundraising, very similar

**[27:19]** to what HubSpot did with sort of inbound marketing in the early days. And the whole idea here is we

**[27:23]** were talking to nonprofits all about like marketing automation and reporting and big data and analytics

**[27:29]** and all of these technical terms. Describing like this world or like, Hey, if you use these things,

**[27:35]** this will happen. They got so caught up in like the what the tools we were talking about that we

**[27:41]** sort of like an obfuscated this like end reality. And so for us, this was a CEO thing. He wrote the

**[27:48]** book, responsive fundraising hero to follow up book called the responsive nonprofit. And just

**[27:53]** in a week we'll release end of one fundraising, which is basically the AI version of those things.

**[28:00]** But the whole idea of that is we're creating a world that has nothing to do with virtuous.

**[28:07]** And we're talking about how the best of the best nonprofits create a world where every single donor

**[28:13]** is treated like an individual major donor, a one of one, which ultimately so many nonprofits say,

**[28:20]** Hey, this is the world we want to create in our fundraising practice. So we wrote this book,

**[28:26]** we've sort of all of our wording, all of our product marketing, all of our pitch decks,

**[28:34]** we're oriented around, we will help you become a responsive nonprofit. Here's what that world looks

**[28:40]** like. Here's why you should care about it. And here's this urgency of why the world is changing

**[28:45]** so fast. You need to do it now. So it sort of creates this existential crisis moment backed up

**[28:51]** by like real data, real customers, real problems, like world changing events. And then from a

**[28:56]** sales rep perspective, you go last, I was like, Oh, by the way, virtuous is the only tool on the

**[29:02]** market that can help you do that. And now it's not about a do I believe you? Is this a problem?

**[29:10]** Like they're latched onto the, I need to become this thing. Virtuous is just a conduit then to

**[29:15]** get there. Just to CRM is just your tool to get there. But it's less about what is the product

**[29:22]** going to do? And it's more, Hey, I'm bought into this end reality. There's all the technical stuff,

**[29:27]** like you have to be really good at community, you have to get your team bought in, you have to get

**[29:30]** partnerships bought in, you actually have to like commit to this thing. It's kind of like building a

**[29:36]** weird, separate little company like lifestyle brand, to some extent, because you need people to like

**[29:42]** believe there's enough energy there that it's a real thing and not a slogan. For us, it worked

**[29:48]** only because so highly trust driven in our buying, like the buyer's world, that this was a way for

**[29:55]** us to create that trust when like there's a, there was a ton of distrust for software providers in

**[30:02]** our space. So I think it works. I am not that guy. I'm lucky to have a CEO and visionary CMOs in past

**[30:12]** who have really known how to do that well. But man, I can take that excitement and turn it into

**[30:17]** demand and turn it into closed revenue, like so much easier than without it.

**[30:23]** I'm already feeling the emotional pull into everything you're talking about. And I think

**[30:27]** it's fantastic. Something that I think is missing from quite a few, quite a few brands.

**[30:33]** Yeah, you have to generally care about your customer. Like we have a lot of our teams comes

**[30:40]** from nonprofit and our CEO gave it, he has sold out to this idea. This is the last company he wants

**[30:45]** to ever create. This is the swan song for him. There is selling out to this idea that it's,

**[30:51]** it's meaningful. And I think there has to be a genuineness to that for it to be real. Like, yes,

**[30:57]** at the end of the day, we're software experts. My job is to sell the thing. That is the KPI.

**[31:03]** But you don't have to like not be human at the same time. And you can't have mission and purpose

**[31:10]** that is greater than those things. I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive.

**[31:15]** I would argue, I think it's very difficult to accomplish the mission. If you don't have that,

**[31:20]** so hitting, hitting extraordinary KPIs, hitting incredible numbers, very,

**[31:25]** very difficult to do if you don't have that mission behind you.

**[31:27]** Yes, it is a hard trade off, right? You sort of have the short term and long term thinking

**[31:31]** and brand building and category building and sort of that trust building exercise is a long term

**[31:36]** build. And there's always that push and pull of short term, long term. And I think it's why it's

**[31:40]** important to have different people within the organization who sort of hold those things in

**[31:44]** tension, but appreciate and value why both matter. Another thing you mentioned or a couple of other

**[31:52]** things were networking, community building partnerships. What are some things that you

**[31:58]** have done that have worked really well? Are you doing things in person? Are you dialing in your

**[32:03]** partner program? Or do you have certain incentives? I know some of these might sound tactical and

**[32:10]** maybe a little detailed in the weeds, but I think a lot of people need just a picture of what good

**[32:16]** looks like in those areas. Yeah, that's a great question. So partnerships is near and dear to my

## 32:19 — Why the SaaS partner program missed

**[32:22]** heart. It's been something I've had either run personally or had oversight over the last 10 years.

**[32:28]** It's kind of similar to brand building in some sense. And I'll be honest, there have been years

**[32:35]** where I don't think we have always gotten this right. And the pendulum has sort of swung both

**[32:41]** ways. So initially, right, partnerships has always been like, let's just find people who are like

**[32:47]** minded in our space. And let's be friends with them. And that worked like in a lot of our early

**[32:53]** strategy at Virtuos was like, let's find the micro verticals within our larger nonprofit vertical,

**[32:59]** where you have a lot of the same people, they all go to the same events, they all work with the same

**[33:04]** like consultants, they all work with the same tech companies. And let's really surround say 200 logos.

**[33:11]** So for us, like rescue missions is a great example, there's about three, 400 rescue missions in the

**[33:14]** United States, they all go to the same conference, they all have a presence in their in each city,

**[33:20]** they all work with a lot of the same partners. And so for us, partnerships was finding all of

**[33:26]** those people, supporting all the events that they were throwing, showing up in the community that

**[33:31]** they were at, and honestly, just doing what we said we were going to do, building the product,

**[33:37]** almost specifically for some of these use cases, and then just fulfilling that over and over.

**[33:42]** I think what happened is we got bigger, the pendulum swung to like traditional SaaS partnerships,

**[33:47]** which was let's create a program, let's do you know, your gold, silver, bronze level partnerships,

**[33:53]** let's create registration and lead incentives, and let's try to drive predictability by building

**[33:58]** this sort of like rigid system. Because that was what she did, right? Like in so many times,

**[34:04]** when we're building this business, you just kind of look at the SaaS playbook, and you go, all

**[34:08]** right, let's try that this year and see how that works. That was a swing and a miss for us. One,

**[34:13]** what happened was our community is not coin operated, and especially people who are tech

**[34:23]** companies. So there's a lot of tech companies and nonprofit, they look and function a lot like us,

**[34:28]** like all the salespeople want leads, the marketers want audience building, like everyone sort of has

**[34:33]** similar motivations, but consultants and agencies that were supported the nonprofit, like oftentimes,

**[34:40]** they're like, I just don't want to let our customer down. I'm really bought into this mission. Right,

**[34:46]** I just want to make sure I can get home by five o'clock at night. There's not this sort of like

**[34:50]** endless growth mindset. And so when we tried to like square peg round hole, it's like, no, no,

**[34:56]** but we'll give you like 5% extra rev share. If you guys send us 10 or more leads, they're like,

**[35:02]** I only have 15 customers and like, I have zero growth goals this year. So we brought in operators

**[35:09]** and teams that just it was a hard that was a hard thing for them to get any sort of brought the SaaS

**[35:13]** playbook to a vertical market that wasn't living that. So we've really swung back, I think the

**[35:20]** thing that is true for me is every partner has a motivation, it just might not fit your programmatic

**[35:28]** approach. And so for us, it's always been the 80/20 rule of life, how do we find the 20% of partners

**[35:34]** who will give us 80% of the output. And we should do things like map their motivations, understand

**[35:41]** what makes them tick, what is a win for each of our organizations, and then actually deliver those

**[35:46]** things. But it was hard to build something that was called it like infinite scale. Now, I think

**[35:53]** that's true for partners that have businesses they want around. And that's been true for us.

**[35:59]** On the community side, I treat that a little bit differently. Most people just want a brand and a

**[36:05]** platform that makes them look great. So how can we get their voice into the market, their book

**[36:13]** release into the market and then platform them in a way that helps with career growth, visibility

**[36:18]** growth. But again, not everyone has that. So I think it's just it's really important to understand

**[36:24]** motivations. That's been tough. As we've hired as we've had folks in the in the partner space is

**[36:30]** like knowing what is most important to partners and not just building it because the rest of the

**[36:36]** market does it a certain way. I think that's that's really, really good advice. And I can share two

**[36:44]** stories, just as anecdotes to support it too. So one, lean scale being a rev ops, as a service

**[36:51]** company, we have lots of go to market tools that want to partner with us. They promise us I've

**[36:57]** been offered up to 80% of the revenue that is sold. And I think every single time we're like,

**[37:05]** that's nice. I just want the best solution for my customers. So if your tool is an incredible fit,

**[37:11]** I might pay you to come implement it and like get involved. So that's always been a big part of our

**[37:17]** motivation. And I think that resonates well, but I see the same playbook kind of being applied to

**[37:21]** us. I was like, guys, I don't think you I don't think you get it. And the other thing, I'm curious

**[37:28]** your opinion on this, too. I haven't personally been in a company where there's been hundreds and

**[37:35]** hundreds of partners, and there's a super scaled out approach. But I have been in plenty, where

**[37:41]** there's four or five, maybe max 10 partners. Each one of them basically has their own partner

**[37:48]** program partner plan. And it's driven 50% of the revenue in the business. Yes. That's 100%. And I

**[37:57]** think we underestimate the time and energy it takes to build something great. And I also think

## 37:59 — Partners drive retention, not just leads

**[38:02]** the other thing that we we did wrong is be more new and we're growing the partnership community

**[38:08]** often is looked at as hey, this is a way for new leads, new revenue growth acquisition. But at some

**[38:14]** point, your partners have referred enough business over that it actually switches to retention and

**[38:20]** expansion. And we have partners that we've saturated their customer base for the most part,

**[38:26]** our team should be providing an amazing support experience product enablement experience. So those

**[38:32]** customers retain with virtuous and that that is something I think that sometimes gets lost as we

**[38:39]** worry so much about acquisition, but like the retention and expansion growth that comes through

**[38:44]** partner managed customers is so huge. And I just don't think we often think about it that way.

**[38:51]** We break up the customer journey functionally often where you've got right acquisition and

**[38:57]** demand creation and like closing that and servicing that and partners, it's like you get

**[39:01]** this one person and they just mostly 90% care about leads. And so we'll just you know, and then

**[39:08]** everyone's like, we'll do another webinar, we'll do another field event. And you just get this

**[39:13]** lackluster results. So I'm I agree, like going deep is important and then also understanding like

**[39:19]** the value that they provide to existing customers is sometimes overlooked.

**[39:25]** 100%. Hi, I have a big question for you across your tenure at virtuous. And I also I might

**[39:35]** compare this to parenting, I think. So I have young kids at six, four, one and a half of another one

**[39:41]** on the way in about a month here. And I think there's always this when you're early, it feels

**[39:47]** like, oh, this has to be the hardest part. And then they turn into toddlers and you're like,

**[39:52]** oh, no, no, no, this has to be the hardest part. And then they start getting bigger kid problems.

**[39:56]** And then I know parents that have teenagers or adult children and they're like, no, no, no,

**[40:01]** it's hard here, here and here. I'm curious your perspective from from a business.

**[40:06]** What has been the most challenging season at virtuous?

**[40:12]** Yeah, it's funny that you relate it to raising children. Most of my time at virtuous I when I

## 40:19 — The hardest season: 2021–2022

**[40:20]** started my kids were like eight, six and four. And now they're 1916 and 14. And so I've actually at

**[40:29]** the same time as we grew a business raised a family. And there's so many things that I

**[40:33]** like overlap to those processes. One thing I actually think is really important for everyone

**[40:39]** to know is sometimes we treat business in the decisions we make, as if every business is the

**[40:45]** same, same age, same problems. I'm like, the tactics I had when I raised my kids when they were

**[40:51]** eight, six and four, versus when they're 18, 16 and 14 are very, very different.

**[40:58]** And you're not still putting them in timeout, you mean? Is that still part of the.

**[41:02]** And so I think like, that's when I say that it feels very much like common sense. And I was like,

**[41:07]** yeah, duh. But then I feel like when we look at businesses, we don't think about like the

**[41:11]** maturity of the company and the maturity of the team, the maturity of where they're at, where it's

**[41:15]** at and its size. And honestly asking ourselves, like, am I changing? Because my parents had the

**[41:22]** same way as I did 10 years ago versus today. Like that would be idiotic. And I wouldn't be a good dad.

**[41:27]** And so I think that like, one, you have to be willing to shift your approach and be adaptable

**[41:32]** yourself. Like growth mindset is so, so important. Like, because the leader of the business needs is

**[41:39]** very different every couple of years. So to your question, honestly, I feel like we had every black

**[41:46]** swan event in the books, you know, when virtuous through the years. I mean, we thought 2020 was

**[41:52]** going to crush us. I mean, so much of fundraising shrunk and people, but actually that was one of

**[41:57]** our biggest growth years. The SBB collapsed. That was fun when it's Saturday and you think,

**[42:02]** oh gosh, are we going to have money in the bank on Monday? Luckily we've got a CFO who moves really

**[42:08]** fast. Like that was a fun one. Honestly, and I don't know how everyone will take this. I want

**[42:14]** to say 21 and 22 were probably our hardest years. And honestly, when I look at the type of people

**[42:21]** that we were trying to hire, there was so many misaligned expectations in the job market for

**[42:27]** what it took to be successful. And then what everyone thought was normal and reasonable to

**[42:33]** work at a SAS company. Now it's tough. Cause I'm like, I know I'm CRO work for company, but like

**[42:39]** I've been and sort of like grown through this to see what's worked and what hasn't. You just have

**[42:46]** to be willing to do what it takes to win. And I think that at that point we were hiring people

**[42:52]** that were like working two jobs and remote culture was killing it cause killing us. Cause it was like

**[43:00]** half the time. I don't even know if they were at their desk. And the thing that frustrated me,

**[43:06]** right? It's like, it wasn't necessarily their fault, employee's fault, that time of the market,

**[43:14]** CEOs and CROs, they were burning four, five, six dollars just to acquire one dollar of revenue.

**[43:21]** And so when you do that and you don't know how the sausage is made, if you're just like,

**[43:26]** Hey, I've just got a job at this tech company, you think that's normal and money was free and it was

**[43:32]** easy and it was flowing. And I think that created misaligned expectations for a few years. I'm like,

**[43:38]** what is normal in the job market and what you can expect from a company? So I say that cause I still

**[43:44]** think the most important part for us today and always has been, has been talent. Like a good hire

**[43:53]** does amazing things. If you get it right, a bad hire does 10 X of the opposite. And I think that

**[44:00]** was probably our most challenging time where we were sort of growing a ton, trying to find people

**[44:05]** who were like mission aligned, we're willing to do, right? Go the extra mile bought in like

**[44:11]** team mindset. I think that season, and that was true across a lot of organizations,

**[44:17]** a lot of companies at the time was very much the hardest. And again, I say it's tough cause I'm like,

**[44:23]** I might have a, I might have a skewed viewpoint. I know miss hero, but like at the end of the day,

**[44:28]** like this, this is also the thing that I feel like has allowed me to be successful is like just

**[44:34]** going for the mission. You work hard and you stay a little bit longer than it's comfortable and like

**[44:40]** good things will always happen with the right people in the right teams. Like find a good team.

**[44:47]** I have a deep appreciation for that. I think talent from my perspective has been one of the

**[44:52]** biggest challenges as well, getting the right people that are bought in and there is, oh my

**[44:58]** goodness, such a difference between an A player and a B player. It's not one level. It's like

**[45:05]** exponentially different. And I used to, I knew that in theory and then being responsible for

**[45:13]** the entire business and seeing it in action, seeing it play out, seeing it in reality was

**[45:19]** just eyeopening. And I think like doing everything you can to get those A players and even if,

**[45:27]** I've, I've gone as far as like, Hey, I don't, we don't even have a role,

**[45:30]** but you're incredible. I need to figure that out. We'll make, we'll make something. Yes. And then

**[45:36]** if anybody is, and I don't want to be too like ruthless about it, but the B players don't change.

**[45:43]** I always had this hope that like, Oh, they get a little bit more experience, enablement, whatever.

**[45:47]** It's going to turn around and change. No, A players come in day one and they're productive

**[45:51]** and they're phenomenal. And you never, ever question if you're going to let them go.

**[45:55]** Like that thought never crosses your mind. If it does cross your mind,

**[45:59]** it's probably not going to change. Yeah. There's a lot of self accountability, right? You never

**[46:03]** necessarily have to tell them where things going wrong. They, they, they will seek guidance,

**[46:07]** feedback or inquisitive, but often are never surprised when you give them feedback or never

## 46:11 — High-agency problem solvers

**[46:14]** surprised when you say something's not working. Cause they're like, Oh yeah, know that seen it have,

**[46:19]** have a plan have already tried these three things. What do you think? And yeah, I'm with you. We've

**[46:24]** hired a lot of people where I'm like, Hey, I don't even know if I have a role, but I just need you on

**[46:29]** the team. And I will tell you like the people that have gone the farthest at virtuous and have done

**[46:34]** well are just high agency problem solvers. I always say like, there's not really a clear ladder,

**[46:39]** especially when you're small, especially when you're growing, like you're just trying to deal

**[46:43]** with this next set of problems. But often the people who actually do get promoted, they're

**[46:49]** just tackling the next set of large problems and then they get to be in charge of it. So it's like,

**[46:55]** Hey, our outbound sucks. And someone goes, Hey, I have a really good plan. I'm thoughtful about

**[47:00]** this. Can I just, can I just try something? I'm like, yeah. And then it works. I'm like, Hey,

**[47:04]** guess what? You're an hour ahead of biz dev. Congrats. Like I love doing that stuff because

**[47:09]** then it's the sense of ownership is already built in when they step into the role. They're

**[47:14]** clearly, I trust them that they'll understand like the next set of problems. And honestly,

**[47:19]** we've had people at virtuous that have gone five, six different roles and it's always like

**[47:23]** problem related. It's like, where is their bottleneck? And I trust those people to just

**[47:28]** be like, Hey, next bottleneck. Like I need those people there. That is the biggest thing because

**[47:34]** the problems are going to change. So do you have someone who can figure that out when that happens?

**[47:39]** Not like, okay, I trained them up enough to be able to solve this particular problem on their own.

**[47:44]** And then, uh, oh, by the way, a new period, like 2122 comes around and things operate a little

**[47:50]** differently. You got to fix it. You need to make sure they're prepared to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And

**[47:55]** I think, uh, those people look at problems as opportunities versus problems as problems. Um,

**[48:01]** I always say like, if we run out of problems to solve a virtuous, we're, we've started to die as

**[48:05]** a company. Like that's the worst place that we can be on. So I love long lists of problems that we

**[48:09]** have that we know we need to solve. Cause that just means there's more opportunity for growth and

**[48:13]** improvement and like unlock. And people who look at that and go like, that's exciting. Can I solve

**[48:18]** them? I just need, no, I don't, I'm not an expert on finding them hiring. I'm like, I still don't

**[48:23]** have, that was going to be my next question. Like I really don't, I just know him when I see him and

**[48:29]** I, and I, I like to find high agency people just like give them problems to solve. I mean,

**[48:38]** is there even a way to interview for it or test for it? I feel like I haven't been able to correct

**[48:44]** that code either, or what experience you look for or getting referrals and references. It's like,

**[48:50]** I, I've had plenty of people that like do a phenomenal job during interviews. We even have

**[48:56]** case studies and tests we have do, and then they get in the real job and just crash and burn. I'm

**[49:03]** like, how, I'm like, I don't even know what I could have done to vet this better. So I was hoping

**[49:09]** maybe you had something. I wish. I don't know. And I still don't know how to test for it well.

**[49:17]** And we started to do more like cognitive tests. We started to do things like understand people's

**[49:22]** aptitude, but at the end of the day, like it comes down to having a bit of a chip on your shoulder,

**[49:28]** enough grit to like move through problems. And this is the other thing. Like this is very hard

**[49:35]** to do on an interview because in the interview, like that person is trying to put their best

**[49:41]** face forward to get a job and sort of like showing weakness or showing vulnerability is

**[49:48]** almost, I feel like impossible to do those scenarios. But when in the real life, it looks

**[49:54]** like people who are like very open and honest about the problems they're running into

**[50:00]** and not hiding them. And I think that's the thing. It feels like it's the opposite

**[50:06]** that you would do is like, let me bring all of my problems. Now I do think like having solutions,

**[50:11]** all of those things are important. But the last thing I want is like one-on-ones with people that

**[50:16]** everyone's like, everything's going great. I'm like, no, no, no, that can't be right. Like what's

**[50:20]** broken? And I want people to be like, this is broken and this is why. And this is broken. And

**[50:25]** I don't think we need to worry about it. And this is broken. And I'm going to need your help with it.

**[50:28]** Like then we actually have something to work on because the point is not just to like

**[50:32]** come in and check boxes and like do work. The point is to solve problems.

**[50:40]** Well, when you figure it out, just let me know. I'd love to steal your playbook on it.

**[50:44]** Yeah, I'll listen. We find your next podcast hosts and they'll, they'll do it again. I think

**[50:50]** you know it when you see it. And when you find those people on your team, giving them more money

**[50:56]** and promoting them as fast as humanly possible. Like I want to create environments where they

**[51:01]** feel like this is the place I want to be for a long period of time. And that's something I feel

**[51:05]** like we do well is create longevity for employees who may not know it all, but are like are able to

**[51:11]** figure it out. And like, that's the most important thing to them. You've already had an incredible

**[51:21]** run with Virtuous. Virtuous is doing very, very well. I would love to hear from, from your

**[51:27]** perspective, what's the future for Virtuous and what's the future for you and go to market?

**[51:33]** Yeah, that's a great question. So for Virtuous, like I think for us, we're continually wanting

**[51:40]** to fulfill this promise of how do we create a world where every individual donor has individualized

## 51:46 — N of One and what's next with AI

**[51:47]** experiences. And that's why our book, like Inn of One fundraising, the whole idea is it's a medical

**[51:52]** term and comes from like the research world where every patient is an Inn of One is a sample of one.

**[51:58]** And you build medicine and design around an individual. So our whole idea is how people

**[52:06]** who have individual passions, individual desires, motives, and especially when you give somewhere

**[52:13]** your time or your money, it's a highly personal thing. People do without a very deep conviction,

**[52:18]** right? And usually when you think about all the places that you've given personally,

**[52:22]** it usually comes tied with like a deep, meaningful reason. And so the more that non-profits can

**[52:28]** connect with those donors in a way that honors that intention, like we believe generosity will

**[52:32]** skyrocket. Like that is the most important thing is we want to create more generosity in the world

**[52:37]** by giving tools to nonprofits to help unlock that at the donor level. So like we want to be

**[52:42]** the biggest nonprofit software company in the world. We've got dreams to do it while also

**[52:48]** being a top decile SaaS company and having the best KPIs in the world. We don't think again,

**[52:53]** those things are mutually exclusive that we can't be an amazing company and do things in a way that

**[53:00]** we feel like are very special in changing the world. Leaning into AI, I know everyone

**[53:06]** is saying that and it's hard to know like, well, what does that actually mean? The biggest thing

**[53:11]** for me is like, I'm kind of geeked out and excited. Like I'm a kid again. Like it's the first time I

**[53:16]** got to the library and the internet was there. And I am like just the exploration, the excitement of

**[53:22]** like, what could be with that? The number one thing I'm telling my team is like, I can't really

**[53:28]** predict the future. There's good things. There's scary stories that are coming out. But like the

**[53:33]** thing I want to do as I want to know as much, I want to be exposed to as many of the tools.

**[53:40]** I want to be as smart as I can be. So when real decisions start needing to be made, when the

**[53:46]** actual culture of things start to shift, when work starts to look very, very different,

**[53:51]** I'm just ready to adapt and ready to go because I want to be adaptable. And I think this is just

**[53:55]** such a fun environment. Now I'll let the frontier models and politicians figure out where this all

**[54:02]** goes. But I do think that for me, I want to come in with a sense of positivity and just say like,

**[54:08]** this could be so exciting. And I truly believe like for some of our largest problems in the world,

**[54:15]** AI is a way to fundamentally shift like how we can cure diseases, how we can solve

**[54:21]** some of our biggest problems. Like, that's exciting. And so to me, I'm just like, you know,

**[54:27]** I've always thought change is inevitable. Bring it on. This is a fun way. Like,

**[54:31]** I get to feel like a kid again, some some respect. So, you know, it's a little bit of both what's

**[54:37]** next for virtuous and me in that sense. Like, I, it sounds simple. I love working on big problems

**[54:44]** with people I really, really enjoy. I just happen to be really good at go to market. And that's the

**[54:48]** thing that I like to do. But I really do feel like the next 10 years is on the precipice of like so

**[54:54]** many fun, cool things to be able to do that again, and having tools in ways that like we've never

**[55:00]** imagined. And again, I love people. And so I don't think that that removes humans out of the equation.

**[55:07]** If anything, I think it just empowers them to do what we do best, which is have a spirit have heart

**[55:13]** have souls and like, do good in the world. Well, I love the optimistic approach to I think

**[55:22]** realism baked in there too, of course, there's going to be challenges. And

**[55:28]** but I think a lot of the benefits, one, it's inevitable, we're just moving that direction

**[55:32]** anyway. So you might as well do your best to navigate it. But I do think once we get through

**[55:38]** whatever the major societal hurdles will end up being, I think on the other side, we have an

**[55:43]** opportunity to build a much better world. 100%. Yeah, I'm with you. David, this has been

**[55:51]** phenomenal. Thank you so much for being here sharing everything you have. I am shocked that

**[55:58]** two boys from Awetuki and Mountain Point High School have ended up in tech and have built

**[56:03]** real careers in it. And I think there's something that's really, really grounding about your

## 56:06 — Closing

**[56:08]** approach, and building something real building something of immense value, and really sticking

**[56:16]** to it having roots in the company. I don't know, maybe it's a maybe it's a Phoenician thing,

**[56:20]** something that we do. But I think everything you shared on how to build partnerships, how to build

**[56:26]** a brand, what it takes to really make it through be in the long haul, be adaptable reinvent yourself

**[56:32]** as the world around you is changing every single day. I know you and I will be challenged with

**[56:37]** that over and over again. So I appreciate you sharing that. So David, thank you for being on

**[56:41]** the show. And I can't wait to see what you and Virtuous do next. Thanks, Anthony. Yeah,

**[56:47]** this has been a joy. It's so much fun to talk through this. And I just I love go to market,

**[56:52]** I love software, I love doing this and keeping the human part the most important thing. It's

**[56:55]** it's a joy to do the work I do. Thank you. Thank you.