---
title: "The Art of the Turnaround: Outrun the Slowest Camper"
episode: 128
podcast: "The LeanScale Podcast"
publisher: "LeanScale"
guest: "Chris Adamkowski"
guest_title: "Chief Revenue Officer, Beanfield"
date_published: 2026-09-29
date_modified: 2026-10-21
duration: 01:04:18
word_count: 10440
topics: ["sales-leadership", "sales-compensation", "revenue-operations", "gtm-strategy", "forecasting"]
canonical_url: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/chris-adamkowski-beanfield-art-of-the-turnaround/
source: "LeanScale Knowledge Hub — https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge"
license: "Free to quote and cite with attribution to The LeanScale Podcast."
---

# The Art of the Turnaround: Outrun the Slowest Camper — Full Transcript

> Episode 128 of The LeanScale Podcast, with Chris Adamkowski.
> Published September 29, 2026 · 01:04:18 · 10440 words.
> Machine-transcribed and **not diarized** — speaker attribution is inferred, so verify
> attribution against the audio before quoting a specific person.
> Structured breakdown: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/chris-adamkowski-beanfield-art-of-the-turnaround/

## 00:00 — Cold open + intro

**[0:00]** We're only going to get better, and I think that's great for everyone.

**[0:04]** It's just, I don't view it as certainly not a replacement, I review it as an enhancement.

**[0:10]** My guest today is Chris Adamkowski, Chief Revenue Officer at Beanfield Commercial,

**[0:15]** an established fiber network and data center company with some of the densest

**[0:19]** infrastructure in Toronto, Montreal, as well as Vancouver.

**[0:23]** My goodness, that's just a poisonous way to think it's bad for you.

**[0:29]** It's bad for everyone around you.

**[0:32]** You're never done.

**[0:32]** You're always, you should always be learning, always getting better.

**[0:35]** Hey, the CRO seat is demanding more than just being a VP of Sales or just being an ivory tower

**[0:42]** operator. You really need to be able to do both.

**[0:45]** If you're a CRO and you're not willing to get in front of customers, that's going to be a problem.

**[0:50]** And what he found is when that confidence grew, it was highly correlated with increasing conversion

**[0:58]** rate. And she said, you know, when you're working with your team, Chris, remember,

**[1:01]** people respect what you inspect, do nothing to award someone for their great work.

**[1:07]** And it means everything that AI cannot do. It can't be accountable.

**[1:12]** So it can execute things. But hey, if this thing goes south, where's the justice?

## 01:27 — The room where he said they were churning more than selling

**[1:27]** So you walked into a company where everybody had been told for years that they were doing

**[1:33]** great. Everything was going well. And then you had to be the person who put the real numbers

**[1:38]** in front of them. Take me into that room. And what did you show them? And what happened?

**[1:44]** What an interesting context at the time, actually. So as you had articulated, I was brought in to

**[1:50]** lead a turnaround. And the first thing I did was take a hard look at the numbers and really

**[1:55]** try to understand the business once I got into the doors and realized that one of the things that

**[2:04]** was striking, actually, was that the company was in a place where it was turning more than it was

**[2:10]** selling, a dangerous place, actually. So I got into the weeds on that, really understood it,

**[2:16]** tried to understand what was going well with sales, what wasn't, what was going right with

**[2:21]** churn, what was going wrong with churn. But one of the most eye-opening moments,

**[2:25]** actually, was when I stepped into a room, led a bit of an intro to me sales kickoff,

**[2:34]** and said, hey, yeah, this is one of the things that we're going to fix. And stated factually that

**[2:40]** right now, we're turning more than we're selling. And you wouldn't believe the looks on people's

**[2:45]** faces. It was shock. It was surprise. It was a step back for many, actually, probably everyone

## 02:59 — Why nobody knew: the CRO versus VP of Sales remit gap

**[2:59]** in the room. And it's interesting, Anthony, because I think the cause of it isn't any kind of

**[3:07]** negligence. It's actually an evolving reality within GTM, which is the difference between a CRO

**[3:14]** and a VP of sales. Where a VP of sales is in the weeds on hitting that quarterly number,

**[3:21]** but usually not truly a revenue number, a sales target number, a quota number. Whereas I came in

**[3:28]** as a CRO very much with the responsibility to manage a P&L and manage a net revenue target

**[3:38]** in order to add value to the business month over month, over quarter, over a year, and on a five

**[3:45]** year trajectory. And so it really is just different. So from a sales team talking to their VP of sales,

**[3:55]** I don't think that they actually thought that turn was within their remit. And if it wasn't,

**[4:04]** probably wasn't defined at the time as in their remit. And so when they heard that,

**[4:08]** it was like, oh my gosh, you understand that that's not sustainable. That's something that we can't

**[4:12]** do. And actually, that's what I built my entire strategy on, was figuring out how to not only

**[4:23]** grow the customers that we've got, but retain them. We've got a fantastic customer mix. We've

**[4:30]** got many of the customers that we want to grow with. It's just a matter of are they buying as

**[4:36]** much as they can and should from us? And do we have our fair share? So really, those customers

**[4:42]** leaving was a really big issue that needed to be addressed first and was. That was the first thing

**[4:50]** that we really zeroed in on and corrected. I think it's a really interesting trend where

## 04:57 — Full-cycle reps and the scope of a mid-market CRO

**[4:57]** the AE role, I mean the sales org of the 2010s was hyper, hyper specialized. You have your BDR, SDR,

**[5:06]** AE sales engineer handed off to the CSM. You have account managers that are just doing, everyone

**[5:12]** got super, super specialized and it feels like it's really converging back to, Hey, we need

**[5:19]** more full cycle reps. And then the way you framed it too is, Hey, the CRO seat is demanding more than

**[5:27]** just being a VP of sales or just being an ivory tower operator. You really need to be able to do

**[5:33]** both. Where do you think that's going? And what's putting the pressure to just be more broad in your

**[5:41]** ability? Yeah. Anthony, I find myself in a position that I'm just so fortunate to have based on

**[5:50]** the skillset that I have and the things that I love doing because as a mid market CRO, I have

**[5:59]** the sales teams, but I also have the sales engineers. I've got the pricing team, the product team,

**[6:07]** the operations, sales operations team. So those aren't siloed groups. They actually all just

**[6:13]** report to me. And so with the culture and cadence that I build, there are no silos. We're actually

**[6:22]** quite integrated and everyone works together with an understanding of what the North star is,

**[6:26]** what good looks like, and what they need to do to contribute. And there are, of course,

**[6:31]** different parts of the business and silos that we, that we break down and work across. But I mean,

**[6:37]** it's also the beauty of the mid market. Where I am is that I meet with every one of my peers.

**[6:45]** There's eight of us on an executive team with a very experienced and very strong CEO. And when we

**[6:53]** connect, there's an open forum and we talk about everything that's getting in the way of us being

**[6:59]** the best version of our company that we can be, which is a very, very, very valuable and important

**[7:07]** part of our culture overall. And I cascade it with my own spin on it. But it comes back to

**[7:16]** being at the right size company in order to have that scope. I think it could work at different

**[7:23]** companies. So don't get me wrong in different size companies, but I'll speak to what I know.

**[7:28]** And it's that call it 100 million to less than 500 million in revenue, I would say is in that

**[7:38]** mid market that probably greater than 100, 500, up to 1,000 employees that I feel is more of that

**[7:46]** mid market. And oftentimes mid market, if it's in tech like we are, it's the expectations growth

**[7:54]** and and not just delivering on steering the ship, but figuring out how to take it to the next level.

**[8:00]** And so that that confluence of expectations allows for a bunch of really interesting things like

**[8:11]** the freedom and expectation that we just do things differently and we trade and we change

**[8:19]** and we evolve and we don't take months to do it. We take weeks to do it and days to do it sometimes

**[8:25]** and same day sometimes if depending on what it is. And so I think all of all of those things

**[8:33]** are possible because of because of where we are and because of how this, frankly, a role for

**[8:38]** companies like this are structured. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And I think sometimes people are

**[8:43]** sitting in the CRO seat, maybe an earlier company being a little too ivory tower in a larger company

**[8:49]** being a little too VP of salesy. And I think finding that balance is, I think really difficult

**[8:56]** for many CROs because you do get the pressure from all angles. And then I think you may naturally

**[9:02]** just lean in on one of the strengths that you have, but you have to be well rounded to do the role.

## 09:10 — Staying in front of customers as a CRO

**[9:10]** Yeah. Yeah. No, I absolutely think so. I think the for an earlier company, if you're a CRO and

**[9:16]** you're not willing to get in front of customers, that's going to be a problem. If you can't move

**[9:20]** with speed and really lean in with what is most likely a smaller sales team, you're going to be

**[9:26]** in trouble. I also think to your point with bigger organizations, there are some things around

**[9:33]** structure, policy processes that if you're not leaned in on, you're also going to run into

**[9:41]** trouble. But I would say though that the leaders that I learned most from and who influenced me

**[9:50]** to the greatest degree when I was coming up as an individual contributor earlier in my career

**[9:56]** were these Google leaders who had 50 billion in their portfolio of revenue in their portfolio,

**[10:05]** but they'd come into a customer meeting with you. And my goodness, they'd go as much as you did.

**[10:11]** Certainly about what was in our systems about that customer. And they just had this depth that was

**[10:16]** incredible. And of course, it's not on the top of their mind all the time. They do the deep dive

**[10:21]** before the customer meeting get in there, but it's so complimentary. And actually, that's what I try

**[10:26]** to achieve is coming into customer meetings. I won't have all of the context about a particular

**[10:32]** customer, but what I will know is what they're doing with our company. And I'll also take a really

**[10:41]** good look at what companies like them are also doing with us. So I can steer that conversation

**[10:46]** and be additive. Let's not take all the oxygen in the room and customer interactions, but actually

**[10:52]** go in and try to build up the seller and maybe the VP that's in the room as well, but also add

**[11:01]** value from the vantage point that I have and what I'm able to bring that's actually a little bit

**[11:10]** different than what they have call it daily access to. Yeah, it's interesting how the expectations

**[11:19]** change on that call it the graduation of companies or maybe it's not a graduation. So if you're a big

**[11:25]** company, you're a big company, that's great. Some small companies, it's great. If they're a small

**[11:29]** company and that's what they want to be forever, they can do that. So I'll throw out graduation.

**[11:34]** But what I will say is that on the revenue evolution, especially in tech as the company

**[11:40]** becomes bigger and bigger, it's tempting to move away from your customers, shouldn't as a sales

**[11:46]** leader. And if you come from a big company like I did and join a smaller one, you do have to

**[11:52]** remember that getting into the weeds with customers, even as a CRO is something that

**[11:58]** is valuable and will help make you successful ultimately. Yeah, and I think the ones who do

**[12:03]** it well, they get that field experience and that's going to really help them guide the strategy.

**[12:11]** One thing I want to get into a little bit, you've done a really good job with

**[12:15]** a full turnaround. And I know a lot of CROs get recruited into companies where that is really

**[12:21]** necessary. So I know ones that are listening to this would really appreciate what are the

**[12:27]** things that you need to tackle first? What are the big rocks of a turnaround that you really,

**[12:34]** really have to get a handle on early on? And what's going to give you the most leverage to

## 12:37 — The three big rocks of a turnaround

**[12:39]** start changing things quickly? Great question, Anthony. I see it as a three-part answer. Three

**[12:46]** distinct things that you've got to get right as a CRO coming in from the outside, especially in a

**[12:52]** turnaround, which is largely my experience. So the first one I think is culture. There's different

**[12:58]** motivations for different moments. And so it's not like, well, this is what worked over here,

**[13:03]** so I'm going to bring it to this next opportunity. Actually, I think you're set up for failure if

**[13:07]** you do. You really have to just get in and understand where a company is in their lifecycle,

**[13:13]** what good looks like, and then the north star to get them there. So culture, I think, has a bunch

**[13:22]** of different parts, but maybe you ask what's first. I think that's first. And I'd love to give you

**[13:28]** actually a couple of examples. So there was one team I had earlier in my career, and they were

**[13:35]** a particular vertical. So this was Google and ads, and this was a team that was staffed with

**[13:44]** very senior sellers for our organization, really, really knew their stuff. But they were actually

**[13:51]** stuck. I felt their growth rate wasn't where it needed to be, and they were doing a lot of the

**[13:59]** same things. And it was so revealing getting into some conversations with them, where it's like,

**[14:03]** well, we do everything right. Look at all of our metrics. We're really good.

**[14:10]** And so this is just the new normal for the business. We've done everything we can do,

**[14:15]** and my goodness, that's just a poisonous way to think it's bad for you. It's bad for everyone

**[14:22]** around you. You're never done. You should always be learning, always getting better. And I'm not

**[14:27]** saying that they didn't have that side to them too, but from a business perspective, I got in,

**[14:31]** and they thought that they'd done everything. Done everything right, and there was really no

**[14:36]** room. They were just going to grow again organically from that point forward. And

**[14:41]** that wasn't sufficient. And there are a lot of things that I knew we could do different.

## 14:47 — 2X2Y: doubling the business in two years

**[14:47]** There's a lot of things that I had no idea what that was going to be like,

**[14:50]** but I knew we could figure them out. So I challenged them with a North Star vision

**[14:55]** that I called 2X, 2Y. We're going to double the size of this business, and we're going to do it

**[15:02]** over two years, 2X, 2Y. And the 2X part shocked them. It made them really uncomfortable. How could

**[15:10]** we double, but we're already doing everything. We've been at this for a whole bunch of years

**[15:13]** already. So that was uncomfortable, but the 2Y was there actually to really give them a little bit of,

**[15:21]** I wouldn't say comfort, but context, that it's not going to happen overnight. We're not going to just

**[15:29]** blow everything up and risk actually dropping off and ruining some of the things that we're doing

**[15:35]** really, really well already. But we're going to take some time. It might even take a few

**[15:40]** different iterations, but we are growth-minded, and we will double this thing. And I'm actually

**[15:46]** pleased to say that with that one, it was two years and a quarter when we hit doubling. So

**[15:54]** we did it. Just missed the deadline. Yeah, just missed it. But that's the thing about a vision,

**[15:59]** actually. Anthony, if you hit it, I feel like if you hit it, you weren't thinking.

**[16:02]** Probably wasn't big enough. Yeah.

**[16:07]** So with that one, and not everyone wanted to be on board for that. And I did lose some people,

**[16:14]** which is fine. I'm sure they were very, very successful in what they chose to do next.

**[16:19]** So I added some different people, brought people that I knew from other places and people who I

**[16:25]** had never met before onto a team that could think about that in the right way for that moment to

**[16:32]** get us where we needed to go. I imagine there's a moment in that room where people were saying,

**[16:42]** two years is impossible. Doubling's probably impossible, let alone do it on a timeline of

**[16:48]** two years. After that reaction, how did you start to paint the vision for them? How did you reverse

**[16:56]** engineer that vision into something they could do today to start stepping towards that?

**[17:02]** Yeah. In that role, in that moment, it was a role that was a lot closer to the VP role,

**[17:10]** VP sales role that we talked to before versus the CRO role in terms of approach. And so I really

**[17:19]** got to narrow into what are the customers that we think could grow and why and what could they do

**[17:26]** that's different from today. And what I was really good at at Google actually was getting to know

**[17:32]** people that ran the verticals that were similar to mine and all different places all over the world.

**[17:38]** So I could see something that was working somewhere else through a relationship that

**[17:41]** I had and then take that thing and bring it back as a case study and apply it. So it was a little

**[17:46]** bit of that background work. Also, digging in and talking to customers and really, how do you want

## 17:52 — Lead from the front

**[17:52]** to grow? And what is it that not necessarily with me, but just in general, how do you want to grow

**[17:57]** your business? And maybe there's something in there that can help. And I'll reference two

**[18:02]** individuals and two things that I learned at that time that I feel like I've made my own sense.

**[18:08]** But I had one leader by the name of Sam Spastian who was the VP at Google. He's a CEO

**[18:16]** somewhere else came back, was VP at Google Cloud. He's a leader at Databricks now and one of the

**[18:21]** best one to many leaders that I've ever come across. I call him a friend and a mentor still today.

**[18:30]** And he had this phrase, lead from the front. And I loved that. And what that meant to me and how

**[18:35]** I applied that was I'd go to customer meetings and I'd, again, work to make sure that the sales rep

**[18:45]** or leader that you go with doesn't feel overshadowed in that moment. Still make sure that they have

**[18:52]** that account ownership because you need them. You need them to act like owners and show up in a big

**[18:56]** way, especially when you're not there. So you certainly do that. But ask some tough questions

**[19:02]** that maybe are uncomfortable for them, especially if they have a long relationship. And I think

**[19:07]** that's part of what leading from the front is, is really getting your hands dirty, understanding

**[19:13]** the customer, getting to know them, understanding the data, where the gaps in this revenue profile

**[19:19]** and why are they there. So lead from the front is one of them. And then the other one is another

## 19:26 — Marshall Self and the slowest camper

**[19:26]** Google leader, longtime Google leaders, Marshall Self. And he had one. He originally introduced

**[19:33]** me to this one. And I think I'd heard it before, but he brought it back and I loved it. And again,

**[19:38]** made it my own sense. And I call it the slowest camper. And the idea is when you're talking to

**[19:48]** a buyer, especially if it's someone who's making a decision who has like a true P&L and has a number

**[19:57]** of different priorities that they are funding through the year, not just in your space,

**[20:00]** but across a whole bunch of different areas. The story goes like this. You're talking to that

**[20:08]** individual. It's like when you're on a campsite and I'm Canadian, we're pretty wilderness focused

**[20:17]** up here, at least wilderness adjacent. And if you're on a campsite and a bear shows up at your

**[20:24]** campsite, what do you do? And the answer is not run because the bear will outrun you

**[20:33]** 10 times out of 10. As a human, you are not faster than a bear. But what you do is tie your shoes

**[20:41]** because you don't have to outrun the bear. You just have to outrun the slowest camper.

**[20:48]** And so apply that to business. I don't have to be the number one thing on your list,

**[20:55]** the number one priority that you have. I just have to be above the line on what you're actually

**[21:02]** going to get to funding this year. And in order to do that, sometimes it's asking an uncomfortable

**[21:08]** question. Hey, what are the top 10 things that you're trying to get done this year to your

**[21:11]** customer? What are the top five? What are you doing? Come hell or high water, what are you getting done

**[21:17]** this year? And then when they get to their fifth or the one that they say they're going to do,

**[21:23]** what's the impact? Let me dig into four and five on that top five list. And if your thing can get

**[21:31]** them a bigger ROI than what they're doing, you tell them and you challenge that. And it's happened

**[21:39]** numerous times where we've been able to, I mean, if it's not better, don't buy it. But if it's if

**[21:45]** it actually does get above that line and knock something else out, then you've done not only have

**[21:53]** you done your customer a favor by giving them something that'll get them a better return than

**[21:56]** they otherwise would have got, but it's good for your business as well. And sometimes coming in

**[22:01]** and having that conversation as an outsider is a great way to lead from the front, but also

**[22:07]** displace the slowest camper. I think that's a great way. I don't think I'll ever forget that

**[22:14]** metaphor, but yes, outrunning the slowest camper, I think can apply so many things and especially

**[22:20]** in sales. I know you have a weekly cadence where you're able to rally the team, but also you have

## 22:29 — The Monday meeting and words of wisdom

**[22:29]** a segment where you drop some words of wisdom every week. I would love to hear how you got that

**[22:35]** started, how you use that to build culture, and then hopefully frame it in a way where another

**[22:41]** CRO hearing this can implement it where they are too. Yeah, happy to share that, Anthony. Thanks

**[22:48]** for asking because it is one of the things that I do that I think is maybe most impactful and I'm

**[22:55]** most proud of because leading one to many is tough. And when you've got an organization, I'll have

**[23:02]** 60 people in my organization, 80 maybe, that joined my Monday morning meeting.

**[23:09]** Part of my culture is radical transparency around the financials. I'll go through those first.

**[23:16]** Information sharing, so what's important for our company overall that I need to cascade to the

**[23:21]** team as well as the things that are happening across the different segments of my business

**[23:27]** or job families that need to be shared, so an update from the product team or the marketing team.

**[23:32]** We do that on a next, and then I do a wins of the week segment where each of my sales leaders,

**[23:38]** each of our VPs, share something from their team, highlights the individual, and allows that

**[23:44]** individual to tell the story to the team, not only for the benefit of helping that individual

**[23:50]** get a little bit of sunshine, which we all love, but also to share best practices and inspire across

**[23:59]** the team and create a little bit of competitiveness to want to be on that list or get that win of the

**[24:07]** week from your team. So we do that. And then the last thing that I do is a words of wisdom segment.

**[24:15]** I do have to come up with a better name than that because it can come across a little more,

**[24:20]** to use that phrase, ivory tower, a little more ivory tower than I want. But yeah, what I do is

**[24:26]** take something that I've learned over the years. I've mentioned the slowest camper. That was one of

**[24:33]** them, which is how to frame up your solution for a C-level audience. And so I'll take a theme like

**[24:41]** that. I'll talk about what it is, and then talk specifically about how you can apply it in your

**[24:47]** role. And some weeks, it's a little bit more philosophical. Some weeks, it's a little bit

**[24:55]** more actionable. And we might talk about how to-- it's the middle of February, and I do a segment

**[25:00]** on how to stay motivated and get out of bed when it's dark outside and come to work with hustle

**[25:07]** and show up. I mean, it could be around that. And they do come back to my cultural principles,

**[25:12]** my cultural principles for the organization, which is hustle, rigor, accountability. I want to make

**[25:17]** sure that everyone has those values front of mind. It's the culture that I've set. It's the culture

**[25:23]** that's right for the moment. That's what I want people to think about. And I even build my awards,

**[25:30]** my quarterly awards around those values. But for the words of wisdom, I'll give you one as an

## 25:40 — Stop at yes: there is no such thing as yes plus

**[25:40]** example. One of the ones that I did not too long ago was this idea that all you can get is yes,

**[25:52]** there is no such thing as yes plus. And here's the little bit of wisdom, especially at Google.

**[26:00]** This was endemic, where you get really, really smart people that were in sales roles and would

**[26:08]** figure out this great solution for their customer. Legitimately, very well thought out, 10-page deck,

**[26:15]** seemingly bulletproof. And they'd rehearse that. They'd run it past me, run it past others.

**[26:24]** I'm sure they rehearsed it in the morning. And they'd get into that meeting, right meeting,

**[26:27]** right audience. And they'd go. And on slide two, their audience, their key buyer would say,

**[26:36]** you know what? Yes. Let's do it. I love that. Great idea. And what do you think the seller would do?

**[26:45]** And I'll tell you, nine times out of 10, it's great. I'm glad you've made that decision. And let me

**[26:53]** tell you why else you should have said yes to that, or you should say yes to that. And they'll go to

**[26:58]** slide three, four, five. And by slide six, there's... And it's funny because it's almost inevitable

**[27:07]** that that buyer will say, oh, wait a minute. Isn't Johnny over in that other department doing

**[27:13]** something quite similar to that? Maybe we should check with them first. Or hey, Sally mentioned

**[27:19]** something like that that was right around the same time. Now that I see that, huh, I don't know.

**[27:25]** It's not no. It's just like, let's think about it a little bit more. And Anthony, it's like time

**[27:32]** after time, you see it talking themselves out of sales. And it's because they really, really wanted

**[27:38]** that gold star. But what's the gold star? There's no such thing as yes plus. You can't get a gold

**[27:44]** star. All you can get is the yes. So on that original yes, it's great. I'm glad you are

**[27:52]** agreed with that. We're going to move forward and we'll send through the details.

**[27:59]** Is there anything else that's on your agenda? Or if you're smart, here are the other three things

**[28:03]** that I think we could talk about for the next 55 minutes out of this one hour meeting and be

**[28:09]** productive with it actually, since you've gone to the trouble of getting the time. But once you've

**[28:14]** got yes, stop. There's no such thing. I love that. I love that. And I think the best, that's a really,

**[28:21]** really clean way to remember that. No such thing as yes plus. I've seen plenty of people talk

**[28:27]** themselves out of deals. I've done it myself. And I think the emotional reaction someone's having is

**[28:34]** you're so invested in the work that you've done, the effort that you've done. You want somebody to

**[28:41]** validate how fantastic it is and how amazing it is. And you've done it with that person in mind.

**[28:46]** So I think it's very natural to want to do that. But holding yourself back from that, from that

**[28:54]** temptation to keep going and just, hey, once you get a yes, just close it and keep going.

**[28:59]** That's it. You've got it.

**[29:03]** Well, I have a question for your weekly meeting. Do you ever repeat some of the words of wisdom?

**[29:08]** Or are you coming up with new freshmen every single week?

**[29:13]** I don't repeat them, although it's interesting. I think there's some truth to the phraseology.

**[29:22]** Repetition doesn't spoil a prayer. If there's something that you want someone to remember,

**[29:26]** it is OK to actually repeat it even to a sales team at scale. You heard me recite, hustle,

**[29:34]** regular accountability earlier. I don't know that a meeting goes by where I don't mention those

**[29:41]** because I want everyone to remember it. So there are things that I'll be repetitive with. But

**[29:46]** specifically on the words of wisdom segment, it's actually it's a unique one every week.

**[29:53]** I sat on the beach one day a while back because I thought that I'd done a few of these and I did

**[30:00]** them off the cuff to start with. It wasn't like some grand plan where I thought I could

**[30:06]** give this sage wisdom every week and have it go over well. It was organic.

**[30:12]** And so I did a couple. I got really good feedback. And so I sat down and made a list. And then

**[30:19]** that list grew. And eventually I'm going to run out of them. But I think my list of 84, 85 that

**[30:27]** I have yet to deliver. So I've got a pretty good backlog for the next year and a half or so.

**[30:35]** That's awesome. Well, I'm sure the team looks forward to those. And then you can write them

**[30:39]** down and share the ones that have been shared with new reps and new people. One of I think

**[30:46]** it's so important. And you mentioned this in the weekly meeting and other rhythms.

## 30:50 — Rhythms other CROs can steal

**[30:50]** Here at Lean Scale, I'd say one of our most important rhythms, we have a monthly all hands

**[30:55]** and we go all out for it. I mean, everything, it's planned. We do dress rehearsal for it.

**[31:01]** There's all kinds of stuff that we prepare for this monthly all hands consistently.

**[31:06]** The team has given feedback in our employee surveys and everything that that is the thing

**[31:11]** they look forward to the most at Lean Scale. And I think it's been a really strong cornerstone of

**[31:16]** our culture. And I don't think we would be where we are today without that. Are there other rhythms

**[31:25]** that you have that are in place? You have the weekly meeting. That's a good one. I think tying

**[31:30]** things to the long-term vision, but are there other rhythms that you have in place that you feel like

**[31:36]** keep the culture moving, keep them engaged that other CROs could steal?

**[31:41]** Yeah, I think actually our CEO does a really good job of doing an all hands quarterly,

**[31:49]** and then a manager's all hands on a monthly basis. And then all of the leaders, there's

**[31:58]** approximately 10 of us in the executive suite, as it were. And we'll each give our segment.

**[32:08]** And that does a pretty good job of actually engaging across all of the different groups.

**[32:14]** I do a weekly. So quarterly, monthly, I do weekly with my team. And then I'll also do

**[32:23]** a leadership meeting and a revenue call. Actually, I do two revenue calls a week.

**[32:31]** Overkill, sure. It's actually really defensible in my instance. But those are a couple of the

**[32:39]** other cadences. And then the teams, each individual team has their own weekly cadence.

## 32:45 — What would be the reason it doesn't close? Okay, what else?

**[32:45]** I'll give you a second on that. I'll jump back in on that revenue call idea, though. Two a week,

**[32:51]** because when I arrived, they didn't have a revenue call. There was some reporting,

**[33:00]** and I'm sure conversations were had, but it wasn't a formal thing. And so I put together a weekly

**[33:08]** revenue call. And what was a little bit different versus how some of them that I've been involved

**[33:16]** in in the past have worked, and the ones that I ran in the past have worked, is it's very,

**[33:21]** very action-oriented. And so I actually have some, not only the sales leaders who will say,

**[33:28]** here are the things that confirming, here's everything that's done so far this month.

**[33:34]** Here's everything that's scheduled and not yet installed this month. Here are the things that

**[33:41]** aren't scheduled yet, but we're working to bring across the finish line. And here are the big

**[33:45]** things that we're looking for next month. That's twice a week where we're having that conversation,

**[33:50]** and you'd think it would be redundant, but it's not, because the sales leaders are there, but also

**[33:58]** our engineering team, also our installations team, our product team. And the value of having

**[34:06]** those different voices in the room is that I can say, if we're looking back on this deal at the

**[34:14]** end of the month and it doesn't close, what would be the reason? And so, well, okay, well, it might

**[34:22]** not, we might slip on the install. Okay, what else? We might not be able to get a signature. Okay,

**[34:28]** what else? Oh, there's a holiday over here. There might not be enough time for them to review on

**[34:34]** their end. Okay, what else? Our MSA is actually not approved right now when we're working on a

**[34:43]** service order. So they might say they need an MSA. Okay, what else? And we go through all of those

**[34:48]** and uncover them. And then some of those things, you can just say, okay, take that away and do it,

**[34:53]** but others can be a little bit more systemic and aren't solvable in a week or a month and just need

**[35:02]** to be part of that regular cadence. And it's funny how asking the question that way can really

**[35:13]** open up, call it the creative juices and have people understand some of the roadblocks

**[35:22]** ahead of time that they might be facing and preemptively get in front of those. And

**[35:28]** we found that to be a lot more successful. Our slips are very, very rare now. And it

**[35:37]** really that comes down to that over communication. Yeah. And I think that repetition drilling in

**[35:44]** over and over and over again, uncovering root causes, core sources, I think it's pretty easy

**[35:50]** to gloss over during a pipeline review and, but not really double clicking in the detail

**[35:56]** and having the right people in the room present to actually action on that. I think it's really

**[36:01]** powerful. Right. Oh, it's so easy to just say, Oh yeah, I know this one's going to get done. Why?

**[36:06]** Well, because our best rep is on it. Okay. Wonderful, but glad to hear it. But, but what

**[36:14]** could go wrong? And it really, it really is helpful. And, you know, it's, it's actually

**[36:21]** like, it's, it's fine to make mistakes. Just don't make the same ones. And it's like, it's,

**[36:29]** and it's fine to, to miss, but just make sure that before you miss, you have a good understanding of

**[36:36]** why that happened. If you, if you know what I mean, it's, if you, if you're surprised,

**[36:43]** it's because you haven't thought hard enough, or it's just something that's brand new that

**[36:46]** we need to learn from for the future. Yeah. Well, and I think all of these sacred rhythms kind of

**[36:55]** allow the company to get the information to each other, bring up things that are important

**[36:59]** and then action on them. Before I started Lean scale, I ran rev ops for three companies. I was

**[37:04]** always always partnered up with the CRO and I was responsible for managing a lot of these. I operated

**[37:11]** in many ways as a chief of staff to the CRO. So all the other rev ops responsibilities, of course,

**[37:16]** I had a solid team, but also making sure the weekly call, the monthly call, whatever cadence

**[37:23]** we had going, I was there to make sure it was shepherd. Well, do you partner with rev ops in

## 37:29 — RevOps, board materials and GTM telemetry

**[37:29]** a similar way in your role today? Very much so. Yeah. And also Anthony, being a mid-market private,

**[37:39]** private equity owned customer, there's actually a fair lift for board materials. Yes. And so not

**[37:47]** only is it creating these reporting mechanisms to report back, report to the team, report to

**[37:58]** leaders, everyone's got a boss, but it's also these formal pieces that we've got to create.

**[38:05]** And you know what? It's a fantastic forcing mechanism because I can't tell you how many times

**[38:11]** we've through with my rev ops leader, we'll be going through decks and I'm just looking at some

**[38:18]** and say, why is that that way? Is that seasonality? Is that lumpy revenue or is it something else?

**[38:25]** And we'll find opportunities sometimes and find mistakes just because it's a forcing mechanism.

**[38:33]** Are our targets, are our targets right? Is this number right? Why are these, you know,

**[38:39]** maybe these numbers inconsistent and you'll find these little gaps just because you're forced to

**[38:46]** do the work. Yeah. I think it's a huge forcing function of process and uncovering things as well.

**[38:55]** And afterwards I always think of rev ops kind of in three main categories. One, I call it GTM

**[39:03]** telemetry. Can you measure the things that you need to report to your board on? Do you even have the

**[39:07]** mechanisms to do that? A lot of companies don't. And then after that, I've always been focused on,

**[39:14]** okay, anything I do after that should be impacting conversion rate or velocity. So can I help the

**[39:21]** team convert at a higher clip? Can I reduce the time and stage? Can I help get leads over to an

**[39:28]** opportunity as quickly as possible, highest conversion rate as possible? So any projects

**[39:33]** that I do, and I think that's helped also when trying to articulate the value of rev ops upward

**[39:42]** or to investors or your board or whoever you need to report to. And Anthony, the way that you phrase

**[39:49]** that telemetry piece, I think that's a great first category because a lot of times you might think

**[39:58]** that you're done finding all of the information that you want to report on. And these are our

**[40:03]** metrics and we're running with it. But if you're not introducing a new metric every few months,

**[40:10]** you're probably not looking hard enough at your data and finding something that matters because

**[40:15]** it takes finding one successful thing. I don't know if you looked at the same way, telemetry kind of

**[40:19]** implies that you probably did, but you find this one successful thing and then you say, "So why did

**[40:24]** that happen? And can I show it in a KPI?" And then turn that into a KPI that you can scale across the

**[40:30]** business that you measure and then you guide your team towards. So it might be like, "Hey, it looks

**[40:35]** like a very simple one. It looks like more meetings with customers correlates to more sales." So

**[40:42]** what's that optimal number? What's that minimum number? And get that in front of everybody and

**[40:48]** measure them on it and watch to see if it happens. Another funny thing, Anthony, that I arrived at

## 40:54 — The light factory

**[40:54]** with my marketing team the other day, we called it the light factory as of. There was this old case

**[41:04]** study that I read, a business school case study years ago. It's probably more an anecdote actually

**[41:08]** than a case study now that I think of it. But it was one of those turn of the century factories

**[41:16]** and a consultant came in and said, "Well, I wonder if I make the lights brighter." I'm not going to

**[41:22]** remember the story exactly, but if I make the lights brighter, will that have an impact on

**[41:26]** productivity? So changed all the lights, made them brighter, and it did. Productivity went out and

**[41:30]** said, "Well, that's great." And so went back and said, "Well, I wonder if we make them even a little

**[41:35]** bit brighter if productivity will go up." So everyone saw it, went in, made the big change,

**[41:41]** turned them up again. This consultant's still here. Okay. Productivity went up again. "Wow,

**[41:45]** that's great." A third time, "Wow." And then it was like, "Let's turn the power down and see what

**[41:52]** happens." You know what happened? Productivity went up again. And the takeaway was that it was

**[41:56]** actually the attention given to the team and talking to them and trying something different

**[42:01]** that spurred that improvement in output. And I'm probably not remembering that story exactly right

**[42:10]** and who knows if it was made up or not, but it makes a good point. It's a great lesson. And what

**[42:17]** I was talking about with my marketing team was we tried this campaign last year and it wasn't one

**[42:23]** that I was necessarily. It wasn't my idea. I saw it and I thought, "Okay, well, that's not what I

**[42:30]** would do necessarily, but I love it when people try things." And someone was passionate about it. So

**[42:35]** I said, "You know what? Let's just do it." It's a small, not insignificant, but small investment.

**[42:43]** And I think it's worth a try. And you know what? It was interesting. It didn't really work,

**[42:53]** but we learned a bunch of things from it. And the people that actually were involved in that

**[43:02]** campaign ended up being a little bit more inspired. And even though that campaign didn't work for them,

**[43:08]** it seemed like it created some really good behaviors around, specifically it was around

**[43:14]** cadence of reaching out to customers that they were then able to bring to the rest of their

**[43:19]** business. So I'm so happy we did it. It's the light factory. It's just because you're trying

**[43:26]** something new, your team ends up being a little bit better than they were otherwise.

**[43:32]** So big advocate for trying stuff. Big advocate for telemetry, as you mentioned, because

## 43:41 — People respect what you inspect, and measuring rep confidence

**[43:41]** you measure. Another leader, I'll reference Marie-José Lamont, who was a CMO at L'Oreal,

**[43:51]** came over to Google, was my VP-level manager at the time. And she said, "When you're working with

**[44:00]** your team, Chris, remember, people respect what you inspect." And I said, "Oh, that's really good."

**[44:07]** And it's true. And she said it in a really cool French accent. So I was like, "Oh, yeah,

**[44:12]** it sounds like it's a thing. It is a thing." But it was interesting because the metrics that I

**[44:20]** really inspected, people really respected and moved on. So it's to your point, the telemetry,

**[44:27]** getting the right metrics, bringing the right management rigor to it, the right attention to

**[44:31]** it, and then getting everyone to actually lean in on those and move them.

**[44:39]** Yeah. And I think in this, I love that, by the way, and I think that's frankly true for myself

**[44:45]** and other teams as well, where it's very important what you measure because that's what gets done.

**[44:51]** And then also sharing. It's important to measure it and then also let people know that you're

**[44:56]** measuring it and looking at it and having the right forms to display it. And I have an example

**[45:02]** that came to mind that takes that telemetry idea kind of a level deeper to where you will want to

**[45:10]** tailor it for yourself. And sometimes it's not super obvious. A lot of them are like, "Yes,

**[45:14]** we're going to measure bookings. We're going to measure creative pipeline. We're going to measure

**[45:16]** time and stage and conversion." Of course, one enablement leader I was working with,

**[45:24]** he started measuring, he would survey the sales team once a month and would measure their

**[45:30]** confidence level on certain areas. So how confident are you in your ability to pitch your product?

**[45:36]** How confident are you in the new features that we rolled out? How confident are you

**[45:41]** pitching against this specific competitor? How confident are you in getting your job done

**[45:46]** internally? All of these categories, just how confident are you feeling? And what he found,

**[45:52]** he had been kind of running this. Initially it was just to see like,

**[45:56]** where can I help as enablement? Where can I help impact and effect? And what he found is when that

**[46:01]** confidence grew, it was highly correlated with increasing conversion rate. So knowing,

**[46:11]** oh, the enablement department, the most important thing that they would measure is

**[46:16]** confidence level on the team. Yeah, I love that. A qualitative to support the quantitative.

**[46:23]** And as a leader, it's interesting because the leader in any business, I mean, it's common to do

**[46:32]** the annual survey on employee engagement. And I think that's actually really a really good thing

**[46:37]** to do and a smart thing to do. And you can get a lot out of that, but on a weekly basis or regular

**[46:43]** basis or whatever it is, taking that qualitative look at how are we feeling? Wow, to do that,

**[46:52]** and then correlate it with results and then understand that seven out of 10 or nine out of

**[46:57]** 10 or whatever it is will move the needle. So let's get everyone to seven out of 10 and create

**[47:03]** that activity. I love that. That's really smart. Yeah, I think it's just, it's how you were double

**[47:10]** clicking on the reps, like double clicking into what you're measuring and why you're measuring it.

**[47:13]** And what, if you knew the answer to, do you think you could then affect? I think it's so important

**[47:20]** to just dig so much deeper than you think you probably have to go. Yeah, great point.

## 47:29 — Culture: traditions and the quarterly awards

**[47:29]** Chris, during the turnaround, I know culture is a big cornerstone of this and you mentioned some

**[47:35]** of the rhythms and things that you implemented. Is there anything else that you did that is an

**[47:40]** important takeaway to help build culture? Yeah, yeah. Well, so culture I'd view as one of the three

**[47:48]** categories that you've got to get right in the turnaround. And the other two pillars, I would

**[47:54]** say are structure and operations. So there's a whole bunch to culture. I mentioned a few of

**[48:00]** those things like the weekly cadence. Another is creating traditions. So a tradition I have is a

**[48:07]** quarterly award based on the cultural principles. So it's most sales, it's the best performance by

**[48:15]** a new person we call our rookie of the year. It's most new logos because that's another thing that

**[48:21]** we're trying to drive within the three cultural principles. So hustle, regular accountability,

**[48:26]** we've got clean definitions for each of those. And then it's manager nominated,

**[48:31]** decided by me, I suppose, but in a management team setting. And then we award those and there's,

**[48:40]** it's all that comes with that is a whole lot of pride and frankly, a lot of smiles and a lot of

**[48:46]** a lot of determination to get on that, to get on that list, that winners list, great tradition,

**[48:53]** costs, costs us, it costs you nothing to award someone for their great work. And it means

**[48:59]** everything. Think about some of the awards that you might have won over the years. It really is

**[49:04]** all about winning the award. It's not even that there's a reward attached to that. So just a cool

## 49:10 — Structure: Defend and Grow, and being the first and last call

**[49:10]** tradition that we do such culture. And then give an example for structure. So again, being in a,

**[49:19]** in a size company where I can make a whole lot of changes to support the strategy that I have,

**[49:27]** and I'm, I'm very free to do that. One of the things that I did when I, I came into my company

**[49:33]** is change our structure to match our strategy. And the strategy was that we, we need to keep the

**[49:42]** customers that we've got. We need to grow the customers we've got, and we need to add some new

**[49:46]** customers. Very simple. But what that meant organizationally is that I felt as though I

**[49:51]** needed a team that I called defend and grow that would take our, our biggest and mid-sized customers

**[49:59]** and defend them. So that means sign them to term contracts. That means really work close with them

**[50:05]** to understand what they were doing and how we can support it and why they should stay with us and

**[50:12]** have that relationship more of an account management piece. But then to the second part of the strategy,

**[50:17]** grow them. So find those levers for growth and use that relationship to be, you know,

**[50:23]** what I call their first and last call. I want to be their first call. You know, Hey, Chris,

**[50:26]** we got this thing going on. Can you help? Yes. Here's how we'd help. And then, you know,

**[50:31]** maybe they talked to some other people. That's fine. But then I want to be the last call. And

**[50:36]** they say, Hey, you know, we've got, you know, this solution, that solution, that solution.

**[50:39]** We'd really like to go with you. How can you, how can you make this work for us? And whether the

**[50:45]** lever is a little bit of a more leaned in solution or, you know, maybe, maybe something to do with,

**[50:51]** with pricing or whatever it is, figure out how to get it done by being that last call. So the,

**[50:56]** the first and last call. So defending grow was one of the things that I needed to do.

**[51:00]** The other was greenfield. We need new customers. So build an organization that is specifically

**[51:06]** hunter mindset, bringing in new customers into our, our organization. The data told me to do that.

**[51:12]** It was that we rarely bring in a very, very large customer. Our very, very large customers start

**[51:19]** with us as very, very small customers, and we evolve them over time. And so by building a

**[51:25]** structure to match the opportunity, we were able to be very, very successful and turn around from,

**[51:31]** you know, like I mentioned off the top, you were shrinking when I got there and now growing pretty

**[51:35]** significantly in terms of year over a year, new revenue brought in. And so net revenue,

**[51:43]** not just sales, of course. So, so structure is really important. There's a few elements to that,

## 51:48 — Operations: putting churn in the comp plan

**[51:48]** but that was one good example. And then operations. So another one, and I'll call this an operational

**[51:53]** piece. So part of this is making sure that the product set is right, making sure that you

**[51:59]** understand the margin of each products. But, you know, one of the, one of the things that I needed

**[52:02]** to do was adjust our compensation plan. And it was wildly unpopular because I was new. They didn't

**[52:10]** know if they can trust me and they probably had it pretty good before. But I am, I introduced some

**[52:18]** things that were a challenge because they were new and, you know, changes, change is hard for

**[52:23]** most people, especially I might be someone you like, but I'm not yet someone you know. So you

**[52:30]** don't know if you can trust me. I earn their trust over time, but what I did was make a bold change

**[52:38]** and then really have to stick around to understand where that went right and where that went wrong.

**[52:44]** And you know what? I have evolved it a couple of times since, but I changed the comp plan

**[52:48]** dramatically. I made, it was important to me to have not only, not only sales, but also churn as

**[52:56]** a part of the compensation plan. So I added that in and, you know, it was pushed back like, hey,

**[53:02]** that's not something that I can necessarily control. And that's control. No, but influence. Yes. And

**[53:08]** that's what I need you to do. So your comp plan is your source of truth on the strategy. If you're

**[53:13]** not clear on the strategy on insofar as what you should do or not do, look at the comp plan. If it

**[53:18]** pays you, do it. If it doesn't pay you, then maybe you shouldn't, but I really go to great lengths to

**[53:25]** make sure that that's done in a way where it's where every behavior is economically incentivized.

**[53:30]** And so having that churn piece as part of the compensation plan was huge for me and also product

**[53:39]** mix. Some products are more revenue than others. And the high margin products I pay at full rate.

**[53:49]** And the ones that are low margin products where it's maybe, you know, not necessarily for us,

**[53:53]** we have some stuff that's very, some products that are very owned, operated and very high margin.

**[54:01]** I incentivize the heck out of those, but the ones where it's a little bit more significant cogs

**[54:06]** plus I'll pay on the margin. And so as a rep, you look at it and say, well, you know, what's the

**[54:10]** source of truth say? Well, the source of truth, the comp plan says, should I do this? Yes, because

**[54:15]** I'm getting paid, but should this be my number one focus? Well, actually no, it shouldn't. It is an

**[54:22]** ancillary product that goes along with our core product, our core product that pays full. Do that,

**[54:28]** our ancillary product that pays fractional. Do that, but maybe do that to help get more of the

**[54:34]** core product. And so from an operational perspective, getting a comp plan that really

**[54:41]** reflects the strategy is a critical part, I think, of being a new CRO. Popular? No.

**[54:49]** Will it make friends fast? Probably not. And you probably should be very, very,

**[54:55]** very thoughtful about it because you can't get it too wrong. But once you get the culture right,

**[55:00]** established, get the structure right, feels like we're, we're pointed towards the right things,

**[55:05]** get those operational things, right? The comp plan is one of them.

**[55:10]** I have shipped out my fair share of botched comp plans. So I know the absolute pain

**[55:16]** of not putting enough thought into it or modeling out. I was like, I wish there was a tool. Now I

**[55:21]** can use AI a little bit to do it, but to just model out, like, okay, if I put this comp plan

**[55:26]** out in the wild, what behavior is actually going to happen? Cause sometimes I'm thinking I'm putting

**[55:30]** the incentives on the right things. And then these wild other things end up happening that I had no

**[55:35]** expectation of, but the team will follow their comp plan. So be careful what you put in there.

**[55:41]** Careful what you, careful what you put in there. That's right.

**[55:45]** Well, Chris, this has been incredible. Thank you for everything that you've been walking through.

**[55:52]** I think so many CROs end up in a very, very similar position. They're putting to a situation

**[55:57]** where they have to do a turnaround of an organization. And I think everything you

**[56:01]** shared about building culture, building the sacred rhythms and implementing the operations needed,

**[56:07]** needed to scale are going to really help those CROs. And then everything else that you shared

**[56:12]** along the way. I really appreciate what you brought to the conversation today. Before I let you go,

## 56:20 — The future is person to person

**[56:20]** anything that you're focused on in the future, what's next on your roadmap for you and the team

**[56:28]** and what you're trying to accomplish? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I could leave you with one

**[56:32]** thing that I'm thinking about that I think would be very valuable to other CROs and folks that are

**[56:37]** in shoes like mine, hopefully not my direct competitors. We'll block them from the podcast.

**[56:44]** Well, thank you. Thank you. One thing that I really believe in is that I think that over the last

**[56:54]** five years and over the last 10 years, sales has changed dramatically. 10 years ago,

**[57:02]** sellers built relationships in ways that were different. There was a lot of in-person meetings,

**[57:08]** coffees were regular. We were telling people, "Hey, get out of the office. Get in front of

**[57:13]** your customers. Get on a plane. Go see them." And very deep and meaningful relationships were built.

**[57:20]** And sometimes it was, "Hey, remember that conversation that we had that wasn't really

**[57:24]** about work but was great? Yeah, I really want to do business with you because I just like you."

**[57:28]** That's the truth. A lot of times, people do business with people that they like and they

**[57:34]** feel that they can trust. And you only get that through relationships that you built.

**[57:40]** I think that until it's AIs selling to AIs, which I don't think is going to happen in our lifetime,

**[57:49]** I hope I'm right about that. But until that's true, there are going to be human decision

**[57:56]** makers and human influencers that are really important to get to know and other humans who

**[58:03]** can only put together a great solution for a buyer by getting to know them. 10 years ago,

**[58:11]** I felt like we were pretty good at that. Five years ago, I think we sucked. Five years ago,

**[58:18]** as a planet, I think we were pretty poor at that, where I think that it was okay that our in-person

**[58:25]** turned into video. But then it was a slippery slope because it was okay that our video maybe

**[58:31]** turned to a phone call, but our phone calls quickly turned into texts, and our texts turned

**[58:39]** into automated emails almost. And I think that's a really slippery slope towards a non-differentiated

**[58:49]** sales process. And so one of the things that I'll hypothesize that I'm sure a lot of people

**[58:55]** just agree with me, I think the future is person to person. The future is salespeople and customers

**[59:05]** remembering that it's really, really important that they get to know one another. Because from a

**[59:11]** salesperson's perspective, how do I know how to position something to someone? Never mind package

**[59:18]** something up that's actually useful. Really, really getting to know them. I don't think you do.

**[59:22]** I don't think you can. You're guessing. And for the buyers, it's like, well, if I don't really

**[59:27]** get to know that salesperson, then how do I know that first of all, they've heard everything that

**[59:34]** I've said, but second of all, how do I know that there's not something that they know that could

**[59:41]** help me that they're not saying because I just don't know them well enough and they haven't thought

**[59:46]** to suggest it to me? As a buyer also, for things like CRMs and different tools, I want a salesperson

**[59:55]** to understand my needs and me well enough to sell me something that's maybe a little bit different

**[1:00:03]** than what it looks like you should on paper. And so I think that so much of what we're going back

**[1:00:11]** towards needs to be in person meetings, building relationships, human to human. I think that's the

**[1:00:21]** next big trend. And the folks that have let their relationships slide will get displaced pretty

**[1:00:28]** quickly when there's someone who's figured out to go that extra mile and deliver that little thing

**[1:00:34]** that's better for their customer because they thought to ask. Well, if you strip away these

**[1:00:42]** artificial barriers between companies, I think when people hear, "Oh, AI can do selling," immediately

**[1:00:49]** they're probably thinking very transactional things that they want to buy. But in most mid-market to

**[1:00:55]** enterprise B2B settings, strip away that artificial barrier between the companies. It's two people that

**[1:01:02]** have mutual goals. And this would happen the same thing internally. If you have your marketing team

**[1:01:06]** and your product team, they have their own individual goals and then they have mutual goals

**[1:01:11]** and they have to be able to trust each other. And the thing that AI cannot do, it can't be

**[1:01:16]** accountable. So it can execute things, but, "Hey, if this thing goes south, where's the justice?"

**[1:01:23]** And I haven't heard anybody saying like, "Oh, I guess why do you even need your marketing team

**[1:01:31]** and your product team? Just have your marketing agents and product agents talk to each other and

**[1:01:36]** solve the problems." I'd never heard anybody say that. And that's all sales really is. You just

**[1:01:43]** happen to have this, "Oh, we're in different companies, but hey, we're two people that have

**[1:01:48]** goals. We want to build the best product over here and sell and get into front of people."

**[1:01:53]** And you have a real problem that needs to be solved. So let's work together. And the same

**[1:02:00]** stereotypes of like, "Well, there's certain biases in sales. They just want to like hit a

**[1:02:04]** quote and stuff." The same things apply internally too. Some people, sure, you have crummy people

**[1:02:09]** internally that are just doing things to make them look good or take a step in the right direction

**[1:02:14]** for their career. So people being unethical can happen in any context. But I think you're right.

**[1:02:22]** I think the teams that really do that well will, in a lot of ways, the competition is going to be

**[1:02:29]** very, very low. So if you pull it off, you're not competing against too many people doing it.

## 1:02:35 — AI as an enhancement, not a replacement

**[1:02:35]** And by no stretch of the imagination, a Luddite, I feel as though an AI-powered sales rep who's

**[1:02:43]** meeting a customer in person can actually really shorten sales cycles, which is good for the buyer

**[1:02:51]** and the seller actually, and come up with better solutions. It's incredible tooling that we're

**[1:02:57]** going to be able to have, that we do have actually already some of the risky, really strong LLMs that

**[1:03:02]** exist. We're only going to get better. And I think that's great for everyone. It's just,

**[1:03:08]** I don't view it as certainly not a replacement. I review it as an enhancement. So every rep

**[1:03:17]** that I have, I want to be an absolute super rep that knows every product detail, every nuance,

**[1:03:26]** and the way to do that is by tooling them correctly and I think with AI. It's just

**[1:03:32]** so important to realize not a replacement and enhancement.

**[1:03:36]** Yeah, it can be the Iron Man suit, but the suit itself is an Iron Man.

**[1:03:42]** I'm embarrassed that I was thinking RoboCop. You're right. Iron Man's probably more

**[1:03:46]** generally appropriate for us, Anthony. I've seen RoboCop too. That's a good one too.

## 1:03:52 — Wrap

**[1:03:52]** Well, Chris, thank you again. I'm really, really excited to share this episode with the audience

**[1:03:58]** and also I can't wait to see what you and your team do next and what happens in the next couple

**[1:04:05]** quarters and years. Thank you very much, Anthony. I really appreciate the invitation to be a part of

**[1:04:11]** this today and I really, really enjoyed the conversation.