---
title: "Why You Can't Sell Your Way Into PLG"
episode: 101
podcast: "The LeanScale Podcast"
publisher: "LeanScale"
guest: "Bryce Winkelman"
guest_title: "Chief Revenue Officer"
date_published: 2026-08-20
date_modified: 2026-09-03
duration: 00:51:17
word_count: 10642
topics: ["gtm-strategy", "pricing-packaging", "demand-generation", "brand-positioning"]
canonical_url: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/bryce-winkelman-typeform-plg-sales-led/
source: "LeanScale Knowledge Hub — https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge"
license: "Free to quote and cite with attribution to The LeanScale Podcast."
---

# Why You Can't Sell Your Way Into PLG — Full Transcript

> Episode 101 of The LeanScale Podcast, with Bryce Winkelman.
> Published August 20, 2026 · 00:51:17 · 10642 words.
> Machine-transcribed and **not diarized** — speaker attribution is inferred, so verify
> attribution against the audio before quoting a specific person.
> Structured breakdown: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/bryce-winkelman-typeform-plg-sales-led/

## 00:00 — Cold open + intro

**[0:00]** One of the founders of Qualtrics used all the time, he said it was nail it, then scale it,

**[0:03]** and I think that that's the model for business. My guest today is Bryce Winkleman, Chief Revenue

**[0:08]** Officer at Typeform, where he's leading the evolution of a 140,000 customer forms business

**[0:14]** into a full workflow platform with half his organization operating out of Europe. What did

**[0:20]** you see that made you believe the front door was worth so much more than just the form itself?

**[0:25]** You know, as you talked about, you know, we own the front door, and it became pretty clear to us

**[0:30]** that, you know what, if you own the front door, that's incredibly valuable. First of all, you have

**[0:34]** to accept the fact that to have a well-functioning PLG engine, you're going to lose some enterprise

**[0:40]** deals, you're going to lose some sales light deals. I'm like, that's okay. I really appreciate

**[0:44]** how you take these approaches of knowing maybe let's be less worried about the math upfront

**[0:52]** and focus on customer impact. How do you make these decisions with the higher level of scrutiny

**[1:00]** that companies are in now versus five or so years ago? You know, there's a praise growth at all

**[1:05]** costs. You know, and eventually you had to clean that up, especially as you became a public company

**[1:10]** and things of that nature, but it was really just growth was the premium. And now it's, yeah,

**[1:14]** you still need to grow and growth still has a premium on it, but it's all about like you got

**[1:18]** to be profitable. You got to show that you have an efficient, effective, profitable business model

**[1:22]** that also can grow. How have you fought for or positioned further investment in brand marketing

**[1:32]** with your board and with your executive team? Yeah, it's a real tough one. And tech was a lot

**[1:39]** easier, you know, 2021 and early because it was all just growth. Bryce type form is known to

## 01:52 — Owning the front door: forms to a workflow platform

**[1:52]** millions of people as a forms tool. You're in the middle of turning it into a workflow platform.

**[1:59]** What did you see that made you believe the front door was worth so much more than just the form

**[2:04]** itself? Yeah, that's a great question, Anthony. And thanks for having me excited to have this

**[2:10]** conversation today. So, you know, it's this is a critical evolution in our business. And really,

**[2:16]** when I think of type form, there's two key distinct parts of our business, right? And this

**[2:20]** is the case in a lot of PLG organizations, there's the, there's the self serve base. And then there's

**[2:26]** the enterprise base. And they really require two pretty distinct emotions. And so as you think about

**[2:32]** self serve, you know, as you talked about, you know, we own the front door, and it became pretty

**[2:37]** clear to us that, you know what, if you own the front door, that's incredibly valuable. If you

**[2:42]** have, you know, companies that operate through a self serve motion, typically, they're a little

**[2:47]** smaller, a little more nimble, you know, say startups, solopreneurs, organizations that are

**[2:52]** in that active growth mode. And they're trying to avoid at all costs, building a hairy tech stack,

**[2:58]** particularly when it comes to activation of leads, right. And so in type form is very commonly used

**[3:04]** for lead generation. And so we said, Look, well, we own the front door. And we are the data collection

**[3:10]** side of that equation. But it makes a ton of sense, because there's a ton of value. And there's also a

**[3:16]** ton of stickiness when it comes to activation. So it's not just collection of leads, but it's

**[3:20]** also the whole activation side. And so if we own the front door, the whole workflow, the back end

**[3:26]** workflow around activation just makes a ton of sense. It makes it again, stickier for type form,

**[3:31]** but also way more valuable and way more impactful for these organizations that operate in that kind

**[3:36]** of a self serve type of motion. And so it became pretty clear that well, hey, if you own, yeah,

**[3:42]** if you own the lead, then it makes sense that you would own enrichment that you would own routing

**[3:47]** that you would also own the ability to properly segment that you would also own the ability to

**[3:52]** do payment processing, right. And so the kind of end to end flow just made a lot of sense. And the

**[3:57]** front door again, if we're already in the in the organization, adding the elements of the broader

**[4:01]** workflow, just it just made a lot of sense, right. And I think type form does a great job as well of

**[4:06]** listening to its customers, which was a key driver behind how we think about evolution and development,

**[4:12]** right, if you listen to your customers, they'll do a really good job of pointing you where you should

**[4:16]** go. So there's, there's that side of the business. On the other side, on the enterprise side,

## 04:22 — Entering qualitative research — the problem AI unlocked

**[4:22]** the use cases were actually very different. It was much more feedback related customer experience,

**[4:27]** some elements of employee experience and research, right, there was a much more kind of enterprise

**[4:33]** grade series of use cases that went outside of that world of lead generation. And so with that,

**[4:39]** and with the strong AI capability we had built into the product, we said, look, if we're already

**[4:43]** utilized for research in a lot of organizations, and for consumer insights and things of that

**[4:49]** nature, what's the hardest challenge that exists out there in that world. And what we saw in

**[4:56]** collaboration with our board and others was, you know, qualitative research is incredibly painful

**[5:01]** for a whole range of reasons, and I won't pontificate too much about it, but the logistics

**[5:06]** of organizing focus groups, you know, the amount of time that it takes the pain of analyzing the

**[5:12]** data, transcribing everything down, creating video clips, you know, and then really analyzing and

**[5:18]** coming to an executive summary of what does this look like, you know, you also have to know what

**[5:22]** you're doing to go and do qualitative research. And we said, look, if we're already used in the

**[5:25]** quant side of that equation very actively, let's go tackle this really hard challenge that AI has

**[5:31]** made easier. And so let's get into qual. And so we said we can build an end to end research workflow

**[5:37]** out of our product as well. Again, it's an expansion on existing use cases,

**[5:41]** and we can completely upend and create a whole new modality in the world of research and AI can

**[5:45]** moderate it. AI now has the ability, you know, so it can moderate the interview in the focus group,

**[5:51]** it has the ability to much more effectively analyze the data in real time, create executive

**[5:57]** summaries, create video clips to everything of that nature. If you don't know what you're doing,

**[6:00]** AI does a great job at spinning up and doing research design. So all of these critical pain

**[6:06]** points that exist in the world of research, particularly around qualitative, we figured,

**[6:10]** hey, type form is in a great position to go solve that problem. And so those are those are a couple

**[6:16]** of things that we've been seeing and thinking about of like, hey, if you own the front door,

**[6:19]** and you own distribution, a really a more aggressive multi product strategy makes a ton

**[6:24]** of sense. And, and you kind of figure out where do you go in that strategy by, you know, thinking

**[6:29]** what is the best next step that an order, you know, that an organization would take on the back

**[6:33]** of the data that you provide, and then you got to listen to your customers, and they'll do a really

**[6:38]** good job of telling you where to go. So it's kind of a long winded answer. But that's how we that's

**[6:42]** how we're thinking about our product evolution. It makes a ton of sense, especially earning the

## 06:47 — Shifting the brand from forms to flows: paid, events, influencers

**[6:47]** right to get to those next use cases and listening to the customers that are telling you exactly what

**[6:52]** they need. The biggest thing that comes to mind for me is the education needed to shift on the

**[6:58]** brand. How are you thinking about doing that with the existing customer base as well as when you're

**[7:03]** landing net new logos, what motions or moves had you had to make to help up level the brand to get

**[7:11]** people current to what type form is today? Yeah, that's been one of the most challenging aspects

**[7:17]** of it. One, you have to be true to your brand. When we still invest in the core that made us

**[7:22]** who we are today, right, you still build an incredible form experience, and you have to invest

**[7:26]** there and build great UX and beauty of design and all those things that were known for you can't

**[7:29]** just stop doing that. So it requires real dedicated investment, ensuring that you keep your your core

**[7:35]** strong. But then you also have to let people know that like, hey, by the way, type form can do a lot

**[7:40]** more than what you may think about. And so we've had to think about activating new channels. So

**[7:45]** one is, you know, we do a lot in paid media, and we have to continue to aggressively go into paid

**[7:50]** media, but test new channels and avenues, we have to get into new keywords, and that's expensive. And

**[7:56]** so we spend a lot of time with finance ring fencing investment to help us break into those

**[8:01]** areas and paid saying, hey, we're going to have a much higher CAC in this area for a while because

**[8:05]** this is what is going on. So no one panic, like let's let this go run its course, you have to

**[8:10]** think about, again, new avenues and channels as well. So, you know, as you think about the world

**[8:14]** of research as an example, and getting in front of researchers, well, you kind of got to start

**[8:18]** spinning up an event strategy. So we started going into small format events, you know, starting to

**[8:23]** really entertain third party events and go, we got to go to where those people are. And this

**[8:27]** developing and emerging ICP as we're getting into it, we also aggressively utilize influencer

**[8:33]** strategies, I think that's actually been one of the coolest things because influencers have the

**[8:38]** ability when they have broad reach, but they also have the ability to tell a really cool story,

**[8:43]** right? And they actually articulate a case and they, you know, there's a use case in front of

**[8:47]** everyone in addition to a trusted voice out there, right? But to access, you know, influencers, you

**[8:53]** actually have to be good as well, because often they're in there playing with the product, they're

**[8:56]** testing it, they're trying it, they're actually deploying it. And so you got to put your money

**[9:01]** where your mouth is, if that's going to be a strategy that you go and try. And so, you know,

**[9:04]** those are just a few examples of how you start creating broader brand reach and helping

**[9:09]** organizations know like, hey, there's a lot more that we do that goes beyond this. But there's also

**[9:14]** been internal shifts, right? It's not just about brand, it's also about are we organized as a

**[9:19]** company around the different motions that we have to now go and activate? Are we willing to go and

**[9:24]** invest aggressively in accessing that audience that we want to go to? And so there's more on

**[9:28]** that front that we could dig into, but it's been a, it's been a big effort.

**[9:33]** Is there anything from the Qualtrics playbook that is opening up this idea of

**[9:38]** landing into qualitative research with Typeform? You know, Qualtrics is from a playbook perspective.

**[9:48]** Yeah, Qualtrics was very much enterprise tech sales led, right? That was one of those

**[9:52]** organizations. It's not a PLG business, it's sales led. And, and so there's a lot of aspects of that

**[9:58]** playbook that we can go and adopt as we move up market, as we move into the research space,

**[10:02]** I would say on the, the growth flow side, which is the lead generation side, probably not as much

**[10:08]** outside of just they're really good at and have been good at deploying a multi-product strategy.

**[10:12]** So for us, I think some of the playbook things is, you know, some of the event strategy, right? How

**[10:15]** do you go get in front of the right people at the right time? How do you have highly curated events

**[10:19]** that really resonate where you can tell a story, but also create an experience for folks? You know,

**[10:25]** and so I would definitely say that there were parts of the playbook that are, that are really

**[10:28]** helpful. They're known in the research space. What we do is very different in a lot of respects for

**[10:34]** what they do today, but they've done a really good job at creating more of a services-based

**[10:40]** flow that I think has resonated. And I think there are things we can learn from that.

## 10:45 — The messy middle: running PLG and sales-led at once

**[10:45]** Let's talk a little bit about the PLG, SLG motions that are running simultaneously.

**[10:52]** The major issue I've always run into previous companies and the companies that we work with

**[10:58]** at LeanScale is that messy middle of it might be a sales opportunity that came in through self-serve.

**[11:05]** We have to get the sales team engaged. I would love your perspective on how to manage that

**[11:12]** and any lessons learned that would work well for the audience.

**[11:16]** Yeah. This is, again, it's a very challenging one. This is one of the main reasons why

## 11:25 — You can PLG into sales, but never sell your way into PLG

**[11:25]** I believe sales-led first companies or enterprise-led companies really struggle to get into PLG.

**[11:32]** In fact, I've never seen it really, I mean, I'm sure it's happened, but very few examples of it

**[11:36]** ever succeeding going from sales-led to product-led. But I've seen it flip the other way, right? Where

**[11:42]** product-led can go into sales-led much easier for a range of reasons. And I'm happy to kind of go

**[11:46]** into some more detail on a few of those reasons, but I would say generally it's, first of all,

**[11:52]** you have to accept the fact that to have a well-functioning PLG engine, you're going to

**[11:57]** lose some enterprise deals. You're going to lose some sales-led deals. I'm like, that's okay.

**[12:01]** You have to be able to understand that. And then as you deliver value and as you package things the

**[12:05]** right way, what you lose on the self-serve side out of the gate will eventually come up and become

**[12:09]** an enterprise customer as you go down the road. But you just have to spend a lot of time from a

**[12:17]** packaging perspective. Packaging is really hard in self-serve and especially where you have self-serve

**[12:22]** and sales-led, it's really challenging. I don't think any organizations actually fully cracked

**[12:28]** that yet because you say, hey, we want to shore up our core. We want to create a strong base of

**[12:33]** customers. And so we have to give them the right capability to self-serve, but at the same time,

**[12:37]** what do you reserve for a market? And typically we found that things that are geared around

**[12:41]** enterprise needs, it's just that's kind of led to the better packaging opportunity.

**[12:46]** Data center location, you think about security and privacy, you think about scale and enterprise

**[12:52]** scale. You think about administration capabilities and the ability to do much more around SSO and

**[12:59]** things of that nature. You got to make sure that you resist the temptation to move everything into

**[13:03]** self-serve and say, what are the things that true enterprise needs? And then let's make sure that

**[13:08]** that's left in the right spot. It's also really important that as you think about how you

**[13:14]** organize internally, our marketing organization is very much organized around sales-led and

**[13:21]** product-led. And then a range of shared services, whether it's content and creative and things of

**[13:26]** that nature. And I think you need to do a similar thing on the product side where it's like, how do

**[13:31]** you build dedicated investment arms in R&D that are focused on key parts of the business? So we

**[13:37]** have a dedicated R&D team focused solely on enterprise capability. And so when stuff comes

**[13:42]** out from there, it's a lot easier when you think about, hey, it's coming from this team. We should

**[13:47]** be packaging that in the right enterprise package, or this is coming from this team down here. That

**[13:52]** should probably be utilized to go and shore up our self-serve core business. And so it's a lot of

**[13:58]** conversation, a lot of effort, a lot of experimentation. Things move regularly and you have

**[14:02]** to continue to have a culture of experimentation because you rarely get it right out of the gate.

**[14:07]** But I think the more that you create dedicated bets and dedicated organizations, the easier it

**[14:13]** is to figure out where things should be packaged. And again, it's a journey that we're on right now

**[14:17]** and we're continuing to pound on it, but we definitely made a lot of progress over the years.

## 14:23 — Why sales-led companies can't become product-led

**[14:23]** I'm curious of something you mentioned at the front end of that saying it's nearly impossible

**[14:28]** to go from a sales-led organization to a product-led organization. And it's a little bit easier the

**[14:34]** other way. What barriers are sales-led growth companies running into that just make it so

**[14:40]** difficult to implement an effective PLG motion at the same time?

**[14:46]** Yeah, so the things that I've run into in the past that make it especially challenging

**[14:53]** are things like there's a lot of fear on the finance side of business. So first of all,

**[14:58]** it's sales-led or product-led. It's a real cultural thing, right? And you get used to KPIs

**[15:03]** and metrics looking a certain way. And the minute you start saying, well, in a self-serve business,

**[15:09]** especially if you provide things like month-to-month contracts, you're going to see churn numbers that

**[15:14]** are probably really scary for a bit. And if your team is not rallied around that concept,

**[15:19]** if the board isn't rallied around that concept and you're willing to accept that,

**[15:22]** it's going to create a lot of fear and you're going to pull the plug way too early. So I think

**[15:26]** things like churn models and fear from the finance team, from the board, from others is one of those

**[15:31]** things that is a real hurdle to get past. I think the other thing too is one thing we were just

**[15:37]** talking about is you look at enterprise leakage, right? You got to have the sales team that

**[15:42]** is also patient and understanding that like, hey, with this motion, we're going to lose some

**[15:46]** business. We're going to lose some existing customers that are going to opt for self-serve.

**[15:49]** We're going to take existing pipeline. And we may lose some of that into the self-serve motion,

**[15:54]** but like we're okay with that concept because if we add a ton of value down there, we'll get them

**[15:58]** to where we want them to be. It's better to acquire the customer and then really drive them

**[16:02]** up market than it is to try to really be too protective on an enterprise versus self-serve

**[16:08]** for a while. The other thing is just packaging is really hard. As you think about, well, what

**[16:12]** do you put in a self-serve package? What do you put in an enterprise package? That is debilitating

**[16:18]** for a lot of organizations. If you've never done that, if you don't have people that are used to

**[16:22]** doing that, it is a real challenge, right? And it requires, again, a level of experimentation that

**[16:28]** a lot of organizations rarely do. And then I think the other thing too actually goes back to

**[16:33]** what we were talking about earlier, Anthony, on the brand side, where we're working on saying,

**[16:37]** hey, we're going from forms to broader flows and workflows. That concept requires a brand shift in

**[16:43]** the mind of our customers. But I think we're up for that challenge because we also have consumer

**[16:48]** grade marketing, right? We are used to paid media. We're used to lifecycle marketing. We're used to a

**[16:54]** whole bunch of things because we have to acquire thousands and thousands and thousands of customers

**[16:58]** a year. And we do, we're talking millions of signups, thousands of customers. That requires

**[17:03]** a different grade of marketing that feels much more like consumer grade. It doesn't mean we don't

**[17:07]** do enterprise marketing too, but you got to have that consumer grade motion, right? Because you have

**[17:11]** to have the brand investment to be able to create a PLG engine. And it's expensive and it is a huge

**[17:18]** investment. And some of these more enterprise led companies are like, well, we're used to just going

**[17:23]** to events and like the motion is very different. A lot of ABM, a lot of high touch. Well, you're

**[17:27]** never going to build an engine big enough unless you invest aggressively enough in brand. And brand,

**[17:34]** it's hard sometimes to track full ROI. So that's when I talk about organizational culture and

**[17:40]** readiness. It's all those kinds of things that become death by a thousand cuts and take these

**[17:44]** enterprise led companies. And those are big significant hurdles that they have to get over.

**[17:50]** Whereas going the other way, it's a little bit easier. It's much easier to layer an event

**[17:53]** strategy on the back of an existing media strategy that is consumer grade. You've already wrapped

**[17:58]** your head around CAC and cost models and things like that. And so layering things on and building

**[18:02]** an enterprise motion becomes easier once you've built the PLG engine. So those are just a few

**[18:07]** thoughts and observations I've seen as I've been in pure enterprise tech and sales led. And as I've

**[18:10]** been in PLG, it's just there are some pretty big hurdles to go over going from that sales led to

## 18:18 — Fighting for brand investment when the ROI is invisible

**[18:18]** PLG. Can we double click a little bit on the brand investment philosophy? I think that is something

**[18:27]** that I've seen so many companies struggle with. It's very easy to make more investments in demand

**[18:34]** engine. One dollar in brings three dollars back from all of your channels. It's a reasonable bet

**[18:40]** to make. It's a little bit more difficult on the brand side. You know that it's really greasing the

**[18:47]** whole system for everything else that you're running. But how have you fought for or positioned

**[18:54]** further investment in brand marketing with your board and with your executive team?

**[19:01]** Oh yeah. First of all, we have an incredibly supportive board and the whole leadership team

**[19:09]** at Typeform is very open to making big swings. And so that's helpful. If you add a ton of

**[19:16]** conservatism on that side, that could be really challenging to get past. So first of all, it's a

**[19:21]** few things. One is that it's really hard to make the case if you're not an efficient organization

**[19:26]** already. If you're not profitable and efficient in your approach and in your go-to-market engine

**[19:31]** and you're not able to use existing cash for it, that's a real tough sell. So one, you've got to

**[19:36]** actually just make sure that your own house is in order before you go really, really big on some of

**[19:40]** the brand stuff. But I would say that it is a challenge because ROI on brand is really, really,

**[19:46]** really tough to show. And some of the things that we've done is we do brand tracking research. We

**[19:53]** actually go and say, let's run a consistent brand tracker. Let's see, can we actually determine

**[20:00]** where we are seeing a brand lift? But we have to go test it out of the gate. And so I think a lot

**[20:05]** of the conversation is like, again, let's ring fence a budget. Let's go test this channel. Let's

**[20:10]** test this concept. Let's test this brand initiative. And here's how we're going to measure it. And you

**[20:14]** got to be really clear up front that it's not typically in the form of new business, for example.

**[20:20]** It's going to be in the form of, you know, things like recognition and things of that nature. And

**[20:24]** so you would you would go and you articulate how we measure it. And then you go run it. And then

**[20:29]** you circle back and say, okay, here's generally what we saw from that. And here's and here's what

**[20:33]** it looked like. We also made it very clear that we want our our CEO and our leadership team to be

**[20:39]** with us in the whole every step of the process. So right now we're in the process of building a whole

**[20:44]** new video highlighting a few of our new product lines. And that's very much a brand initiative

**[20:50]** in a lot of ways. And so we make sure that our chief product and technology officer, our CFO,

**[20:56]** our CEO, they're involved in the development of that they get their eyes on it, they feel like

**[21:01]** they're a part of the brand initiative. And it makes it easier. Like if it's just a hey,

**[21:05]** just trust us, we'll go do something interesting over here. It's a lot tougher to do. Now, eventually,

**[21:10]** we may get to that point. But first, you got to go build the trust with the team, paint the vision,

**[21:13]** and help them understand this is what we're trying to do and come along the journey with us.

**[21:17]** And obviously, our whole leadership team is not involved in every single campaign that we do on

**[21:22]** the brand side. But those big ones, those those things that are big investments, and that we

**[21:26]** believe are going to move the needle, we try to make sure that they're actually bought into the

**[21:29]** whole concept start to finish. I think, you know, a few other important points is that if something

**[21:37]** doesn't work, you got to be willing to pull the plug on it. If it's like, hey, you know what,

**[21:41]** we tried this thing on the brand side, we didn't see a lift from it. We didn't see any new business

**[21:47]** increase, right? If that is something that you're going to measure in that market. And so we're

**[21:51]** going to stop doing it, right? And when the organization knows that they can trust you to

**[21:54]** make the right business decision, not just to protect something because it's your own,

**[21:58]** you know, your own project, that also buys significant trust, right? And so, but brand is

**[22:04]** a brand's a tricky one. It's something that does require investment. I think the other thing too,

**[22:08]** is there's a bit of a business imperative because if you're over reliant on one channel,

**[22:13]** this is one of the most disruptive times I've seen in tech in 20 years in tech. Like this is like,

**[22:17]** it's insane what's happening with search and paid media and CAC and all of these things that are

**[22:22]** kicking off. Like it's really, really challenging. And so you have to have a diversified channel

**[22:26]** strategy on acquisition. You have to. And in order to do that and to activate those channels,

**[22:32]** you have to have a strong brand. Otherwise, you're going to find yourself overly reliant

**[22:36]** in one channel. And so with that business imperative and but that's that's part of what

**[22:40]** has to be pitched as a part of this. It's not just, hey, we want to go create a brand video.

**[22:44]** It needs to be there's a shift happening in the landscape. We need to go diversify our

**[22:49]** acquisition channels. Here's one of the ways we need to go do it. We need to invest in brand.

**[22:53]** And then you start the pitch. So you start with the business imperative too. And I think that's

**[22:57]** another lesson that can be learned. Sometimes it's easy, especially when you have very creative

**[23:01]** people to dive directly into the creative side of it. You got to start with the business imperative

**[23:05]** of like, why are we doing this in the first place? And then you go into the creative aspects of it

**[23:11]** and the project management side of it. And so those are just a few learnings over the years of

**[23:15]** like how I think you can get better brand investment from your team. But having, again,

**[23:19]** a very supportive leadership team and board goes a long way. Are there any heuristics that you use,

**[23:26]** maybe percent of marketing budget, percent of total revenue, anything that gives you

**[23:33]** back of the napkin math to say, hey, we're probably investing enough or we're probably

**[23:39]** not investing enough. That's a good question. I don't think there's a clear cut rule

**[23:49]** for how to think about brand investment. I mean, ultimately it needs to trickle down to,

**[23:54]** I mean, you can see, we can see things like we have dedicated campaigns that are designed for

**[23:58]** brand and you can see what it clicks look like, right? Are we seeing a reduction in clicks? Are

**[24:02]** we seeing more, you know, there's a lot of things brand related that's pure content, right? So you're

**[24:06]** not actually designed for, you know, a click through. It's designed for, you know, you're not,

**[24:12]** it's not designed for signups. It's not designed for new business. It's purely designed for like

**[24:16]** thought leadership and creating a brand in the space. You know, you can see how the how the take

**[24:21]** is on that. Is that performing well? Is it not performing well? Is that because of the channels,

**[24:25]** because of lack of investment? So you just have to have really smart people that are very driven

**[24:29]** and good at this stuff to be looking at it all the time and say, this is working or not working

**[24:33]** because of this. And so here's what we recommend we go do. And so, but yeah, from a, from a pure

**[24:38]** numbers perspective, I don't think there's really a clear guiding principle on that aspect of it.

**[24:44]** It's kind of, it's, it's a little bit of art and science. Yeah. And like most things, it depends on

**[24:49]** everything happening internally, but just wondering if there was any, anything that stood out, just

**[24:55]** because I know it's so tricky and a lot of people are having a tough time getting budgets for brand

**[25:01]** related investments approved and getting the support behind them. But I, I agree with you.

**[25:08]** It is the most disruptive time. And I think the companies that are investing in brand though,

**[25:14]** are actually performing really well. They're showing up in the LMS. They're owning their

**[25:19]** audience. They're creating relative content that brings people into their brand and then

**[25:25]** gets them into their ecosystem. So I don't have one either. I wish I had some guidance on it,

**[25:31]** but I do see the companies that are investing in it are performing really well and they seem to get

## 25:37 — AI search: why brand and content matter more than ever

**[25:37]** it. Yeah, no, I absolutely believe you're right. And that's been one of the unique aspects of

**[25:44]** this new world of AI search. It's that brand and content have never been more important. And so

**[25:50]** whatever it was, like it needs to be more, I think is what I'm seeing. It's a, you know,

**[25:55]** if you want to be recognized, you need to be nailing it on review sites. If you want to be

**[26:00]** recognized, you need to be creating incredible content, like actual valuable content. If you

**[26:04]** want to be nailing it, you need to be being discussed. You need to be in things like Reddit

**[26:08]** and other channels, right? You have to have that, that owned audiences you're talking about. It's,

**[26:12]** it's so disruptive that if you don't have the brand investment, it's going to be really,

**[26:15]** really hard to cut through the noise. It's going to be really hard to be found now

**[26:19]** because of the way that search is changing.

## 26:24 — Enablement: bringing the team into the "why"

**[26:24]** We talked a little bit about getting the market up to speed on new things that you're doing,

**[26:31]** going from forms to flows. Where my mind goes is it may be equally as difficult to get the

**[26:40]** enablement internally, especially on sales teams, SDR teams, the whole go to market organization.

**[26:47]** I would love if you could share a little bit about your approach to enablement

**[26:52]** to get those teams up to speed and ready for the change that Typeform is going through.

**[26:58]** Yeah. Yeah. So enablement is critically important and it's a team effort, right? We have great,

**[27:03]** you know, sales leadership that's driving enablement and thinking about it and customer

**[27:06]** success leadership that's thinking about it regularly and joint enablement sessions. And

**[27:11]** we have incredible product marketers and folks like that that are kind of teaching positioning and,

**[27:15]** you know, and all that stuff. But I think one of the biggest takeaways, and I think a lot of

**[27:18]** organizations are doing the, like, the, you know, the classroom teaching, which I think is important

**[27:24]** and to teach them, hey, here's what the positioning is. Here's how you talk about it. Here's who the

**[27:28]** ICP is. Here's how the ICP thinks. Here's how they buy. Here's what it looks like. But I think

**[27:31]** there's a few things that have been some good best practices to think about as you go. One is that it

**[27:36]** rarely is ever, mission is not accomplished after one enablement session. It's ongoing enablement.

**[27:42]** It's ongoing conversations. And I would encourage any leaders out there that may be listening to

**[27:47]** this to think about, like, when was the last time I had a skip level with that team and was able to

**[27:53]** dig in and understand like, do they get this? Do they understand this? Like, what's going on,

**[27:57]** right? Sometimes, and it doesn't mean that, you know, the other management layers are not doing

**[28:01]** a great job. I'm sure they are. But sometimes you need to go down and hear it for yourself. You need

**[28:06]** to be listening to call recordings. You need to be actually attending enablement. You need to be

**[28:11]** doing those things and seeing what's taking what isn't. And it's an ongoing process of continuous

**[28:15]** enablement. And as you learn more, share it, right? So with this new product line, this research flow

**[28:20]** product line, I've been going out to my own network and setting up conversations to go learn, like,

**[28:25]** how does, you know, how do great executives in the space, like, how are they thinking about what

**[28:30]** we're doing? What do they think about the ICP? What's the problem that we would be solving for

**[28:34]** them? And so I've been having a lot of those conversations. And then I take that information

**[28:38]** that I learned, we distill it down, and I send it out into a field channel, so that everyone can

**[28:42]** learn like, hey, okay, here's the conversation I had. And here are all the key takeaways that you

**[28:46]** should be thinking about, right? And so it's continuous enablement, continuous communication.

**[28:51]** So that's one, I think important point. The second point, and by the way, I think it's important that

**[28:56]** you lead from the front as a leader, right? That you're actually having the conversations as well,

**[29:00]** you can see where things are breaking down, right? You, they're just delegated to your team and hope

**[29:04]** that you eventually hear from it, right? One of the things that I've learned, and this isn't a

**[29:08]** natural part of enablement, because often, again, you focus on things like product capability and

**[29:12]** messaging and how to position it and, you know, medic related to it. And there's all this stuff

**[29:17]** that you would typically go and teach. But it's really important that you bring the team along

**[29:22]** with why did we make this strategic decision? This is a big takeaway recently, I was having a skip

**[29:26]** level team meeting with our customer success team. And we were talking about the research flow product

**[29:32]** that we had just launched. And I just naturally started telling the story of like, why we made

**[29:37]** the decision to enter the space and talked a lot about the interactions we had had with the board,

**[29:41]** where they saw investment going, what was going on. And I started just sharing some of this,

**[29:45]** this context. And one of the CSMs came off mute and said, that is the first time we've heard

**[29:51]** why we made this decision. It's not like we ever doubted the decision. We think it's a great idea,

**[29:56]** but we no one had ever brought us into the like, why did we go there? And why is this so important?

**[30:02]** And so that was a big aha moment for me that sometimes it's not just the skills based

**[30:07]** enablement. But sometimes you need to actually bring the team along with you as to why this

**[30:12]** strategic initiative, why does this matter so much? Why did we make this decision as a leadership team?

**[30:18]** And so I think that's another piece is that you may actually need to take your enablement playbook

**[30:22]** and take it a click or two deeper into the concept. Because when you can bring the team around

**[30:27]** mentally, then all the skill stuff layers on a much stronger foundation. So I think that was a

**[30:33]** big takeaway over the last three weeks, regarding how to just keep keep pounding on and driving

**[30:38]** enablement in the right place. Getting that buy in is so difficult. And especially when you're

**[30:44]** sitting in rooms, you you know, every detail of the strategy and the plan, and then you forget that

**[30:50]** so many people have not been as privy to the information that you have. So intentionally,

**[30:56]** going back, reminding the team of why we're doing what we're doing, I think it makes a ton of sense.

**[31:02]** I tend to call myself the chief reminder officer. And I need to remember that just because I know

**[31:07]** something, it doesn't mean everybody else knows it. So I have to be okay with repeating myself

**[31:12]** over and over again to people. And I think a lot of organizations miss that layer. And just I think

**[31:20]** they have assumptions that people already get it. Yeah, I totally agree. And you may think, well,

**[31:26]** I said it once, like, how many times do I need to say it? Well, the answer is again, and again,

**[31:30]** and again, and again. And then you need to have skip levels with folks. And, you know, obviously,

**[31:34]** you're already having conversations with your directs. But then again, these these skip levels

**[31:38]** open up to like, Oh, you know what, that didn't land, like, I need to repeat, we need to talk about it

**[31:42]** again, I don't care how many times you've talked about pricing, and packaging, and I don't know,

**[31:46]** I don't care how many times you've talked about positioning and messaging. You know, stuff isn't

**[31:50]** always landing. And unless you're really close to the, to the individuals that are taking it to

**[31:55]** market, like you're going to miss the fact that it just is not really connecting at this point. And

**[31:59]** that's why I would recommend there's something really important to you, as well as a revenue

**[32:03]** leader in an organization, sometimes you need to deliver that message yourself, right, and then do

**[32:08]** the follow ups and then do the conversations and the skip levels and the, you know, regular check-ins,

**[32:13]** you got to watch the calls, and you got to see how they're doing it, you have to do that work

**[32:16]** yourself. Again, it doesn't mean that the other people that are designed to do it are not critically

**[32:20]** important. But sometimes you have the context, you have the understanding that can be really helpful.

**[32:25]** And so I don't know, that's, that's one of those things that you just, you just kind of have to be

**[32:29]** involved in the process to, yes, you delegate key critical things that you need to delegate,

**[32:34]** but you can't just blindly just say, okay, someone's got enablement, and I'm going to

**[32:37]** carry on with my day. Are there any key roles that you have on your team, that you think maybe other

## 32:42 — The roles that make it work: RevOps, PMM, and ops

**[32:43]** companies are not making this level of investment and enablement operations, all the support

**[32:50]** connective tissue that keeps these initiatives moving along? Oh, geez. There, honestly,

**[32:57]** there are so many people that, and we've spent a lot of time over the last, you know, year and a

**[33:04]** half or so, of refining the organization. Because if your organization does not look and reflect

**[33:12]** the investments you're making from a big bet perspective and the products you're, you're

**[33:16]** investing in, there's going to be weird dissonance in the organization. So you have to actually make

**[33:20]** sure you have the roles and the structure that reflect your priorities. And so I, you know,

**[33:26]** there are a lot of roles, like I have never leaned more in my life on product marketing.

**[33:31]** Incredible, like so much work that they have to do, you know, in helping us transition and form

**[33:36]** into a whole new, whole new side of the business, right? I think about revenue operations, like how

**[33:42]** critical they are as like strategy partners. And I view revenue operations for me as it's not just

**[33:47]** a data and reporting function, like they're true, like the operational leaders of the business in a

**[33:52]** lot of ways, right? We also brought in marketing operations, right? How do we make sure that as we

**[33:58]** are transitioning and transforming as a company, that marketing and product stay in complete sync.

**[34:02]** And so you have product operations and marketing operations that work so close together. That's

**[34:07]** been a huge unlock from an efficiency perspective, but I'll just also just communication and

**[34:12]** transparency. And because, you know, there were times, you know, where you found that like, hey,

**[34:16]** we're running this marketing initiative and product has no idea what's going on,

**[34:19]** our product is making this change on the roadmap and marketing has no idea what's going on, right?

**[34:23]** So how do you actually bring some of those operational roles together can be really,

**[34:26]** really helpful. Obviously, being careful to avoid glue functions as well, it's an important part,

**[34:31]** you know, so I would say those are some really critical things. We also have hired a head of

**[34:36]** field engineering, kind of this combination of like custom engineering, making sure that the right

**[34:41]** kind of level of solutions are built for organizations helping out on the pre-sale side,

**[34:46]** you know, from pre-sales to post-sales. There's also, you know, as we entered the research space,

**[34:51]** we said, look, you know, one of the big unlocks I've seen in multiple companies is bringing in

**[34:56]** experts to go in and talk about the product, right? So if you are happy at deep industry

**[35:00]** focus, you need to bring in an industry expert. And they're incredibly impactful in a pre-sales

**[35:05]** motion all the way through to like post-sales delivery and knocking it out of the park for the

**[35:10]** customer and building that continued trust going forward. So whether it's an industry expert,

**[35:14]** or we just hired a research expert to help us with the research flow side, it's like, look,

**[35:19]** you know research, you know research better than anyone that's here. And so one, we want you to

**[35:23]** pound on the product to we need you to be involved in pre-sale conversations, be a thought partner

**[35:27]** with the customer, think through what they're trying to do, help them design POCs, you know,

**[35:31]** and then you're going to be responsible for delivery on the back end. And so bringing in

**[35:34]** some of those real specialists and experts has been a massive unlock again, and that's multiple

**[35:39]** organizations where that's been really, really huge. So I would say those are a few roles. But

**[35:45]** again, it gets tough when you start naming roles because everyone has some critical part to play

**[35:49]** our content team. We couldn't do all this AI search stuff if we didn't have a killer content

**[35:54]** team that was pumping out great content. Head of web strategy has been transformational in our

**[35:58]** organization. You can just go down the list and everyone has a really important part to play in

## 36:02 — The industry-expert hire most teams miss

**[36:02]** our story. I think one that was pretty unique and I have a couple questions on the revenue ops and

**[36:10]** marketing ops side. It's a near and dear place to me, but I want to spend a moment on the industry

**[36:17]** experts and I want to make sure I'm understanding right. So if you're going into a particular

**[36:22]** vertical or function that has a specific audience, specific customer, and you're bringing in these

**[36:29]** experts to speak to it, how are you structuring that team? Are they reporting into sales? Do they

**[36:35]** have their own division? How do you hire for those type of roles? And what does day to day look like?

**[36:41]** Because I'm asking because I think a lot of companies could benefit from having a roster

**[36:46]** of people like that on their team. But functionally, how do you get that into the organization?

**[36:51]** Yeah, we could do a whole podcast on this one. This has been again, this is an area that would

**[36:57]** be happy to have you back for another one. Yeah, there's there's so much that we could go into on

**[37:01]** this front. So, you know, in a past life, you know, I was operating, you know, I was on a leadership

**[37:08]** team of a business unit in HR technology. And it was a very scientific aspect of it focused on the

**[37:15]** world of, you know, employee engagement and things of that nature. And the industry had been very

**[37:19]** reliant on agencies for a long time, it was very services heavy. And then we were the technology

**[37:24]** disruptor. But we found that there had to be some kind of a blend of like, these organizations value

**[37:29]** the thought partnership, and the guidance that was given through the agencies and going pure tech,

**[37:34]** and relying just on in house resources that they had available was really challenging. And so we

**[37:38]** launched team that was a bunch of organizational psychologists. And, you know, and so when you in

**[37:45]** when you bring in individuals like that, like like PhD level, you know, organizational behavior,

**[37:51]** you know, in folks with that, you know, IO psychologists, things of that, like they were

**[37:55]** able to come in in a pre sale motion, and they were able to collaborate with the customer and

**[37:58]** say, Well, let me help you understand how these benchmarks work. Here's how you should think about

**[38:02]** measurement and design here. And so they were that, that upfront, consultative partner to get

**[38:07]** them to feel comfortable to move on to a more tech based solution. And then there was a services team

**[38:12]** that would kind of pick it up from their post sale and take it and run additional services on the

**[38:15]** back of it for organizations that were ready to self serve it. organizationally, often this group

**[38:21]** reports to me like, these folks are typically again, you get a lot of folks that are PhD level,

**[38:28]** late career, right folks that have done it before been there done that. And so it can be challenging

**[38:33]** to just purely bury them in an organization. However, I also have seen them, you know, inside

**[38:37]** of a pre sales organization, you know, and so the structures are kind of all over when I was a chief

**[38:43]** strategy officer at quantum metric this, they also reported to me we were much more industry focused.

**[38:48]** And so it was okay, well, we want to go deep into travel and hospitality. That's a huge play for us

**[38:53]** within our technology. And we, you know, we have a ton of airlines, we have, you know, hotels, we

**[38:58]** have all these different groups that we want to work with or are working with, let's go hire the

**[39:02]** head of digital, which was the product that we provided was it was a digital analytics application,

**[39:06]** let's go get the head of digital at this hotel chain. And let's bring her into the organization

**[39:13]** so that when we are working with other hotel chains, she can come and say, let me tell you

**[39:16]** lessons learned. Let me help you understand why this technology is differentiated from a

**[39:20]** trusted voice that's been in those people's shoes that you're selling to. It's incredibly impactful.

**[39:26]** And so those individuals were part of the organization. So we had someone, you know,

**[39:29]** for retail, you had someone for travel and hospitality, you had someone for financial

**[39:33]** services, right, you go get people that have done the job, and you bring them in. And what's cool

**[39:37]** for those folks, too, is it diversifies their career, right? They have, they've been on that

**[39:41]** client side for so long, that coming in and getting to cut their teeth in tech, it opens

**[39:46]** up a whole new world of career for them, too. And so like, it's been very mutually beneficial.

**[39:51]** And then similar thing here, we actually are our associate principal researcher that we brought in

**[39:58]** to help us launch research flow and get it off the ground. She's also she's really spanning both

**[40:02]** pre and post sale. And we're going to be investing in this part of the organization. She sits in

**[40:06]** customer success reports directly to the VP of customer success, because that's where post sale

**[40:11]** lives right now. And so we said, let's, let's put her there. But there's probably about three

**[40:16]** different places in the organization where she could sit. Because she is involved in pre sale,

**[40:21]** she is involved in post sale, she is involved in everything in between, she could probably sit in

**[40:25]** the sales organization, and she's doing a lot of that work to directly with the sales team.

**[40:29]** And, and so, organizationally, there's a lot of places that you know, you could go and put this

**[40:35]** person, I think the biggest challenge is less organizational structure, and probably more of

**[40:39]** like, how do you get a team that maybe has never sold with someone like this, and get them to

**[40:43]** effectively incorporate them into the process. So one, it's, it's how do you take a team that's

**[40:48]** never had that subject matter expertise? And how do you help them know what this person can do and

**[40:53]** why you want them at the table with you and strategic deals? So getting that to take is the

**[40:57]** first problem. But then when you do that really well, you run into a secondary problem, which is

**[41:03]** now how do you create an intake process, because it becomes so powerful, everyone wants to use that

**[41:09]** team. And that's usually not a huge team, right? It's a few people. So you then have to say, okay,

**[41:14]** well, now we have to figure out what are the right deals that these people work on. And so you're

**[41:19]** going to run into the other problem where they'll become so popular, everyone wants them on every

**[41:22]** deal. So then you have to figure out, well, how do you actually structure this and find the right

**[41:26]** strategic deals. And then you have, you know, what do you do on the post sale side, one of the best

**[41:30]** ways to scale in post sales is you do have an in house team that can do this work. But that's

**[41:35]** where we scale through partners. And I've typically found 70 to 80% of your post sale work,

**[41:39]** we would typically send to partners who can then take what was done in pre-sale and then take it

**[41:44]** and carry it forward and continue with program development and design. And so really thinking

**[41:49]** through one, how do you get people to understand how to sell with the person is number one. And

**[41:53]** that's something that's very doable. Second is once you get those wins, they become in major demand.

**[41:58]** So how do you now figure out what are the deals they should be involved in and make sure that those

**[42:01]** get to that person or those people. And then the third step is now how do you scale because

**[42:07]** the services component becomes they're so valuable in pre and post sales. Now the customer wants to

**[42:11]** utilize them all the time. So how do you scale the services side? And I've typically found partners

**[42:16]** are a good way to do that. So it takes some time, but it's a massive unlock.

**[42:23]** As most things, it doesn't sound like a cookie cutter approach and you'll have to tailor it to

**[42:26]** your industry. But I love hearing how busy they get. It sounds like you might need to hire them

**[42:30]** an agent to manage all of the work they're getting internally, keep up with the volume.

**[42:35]** Incredible, incredible people out there, super smart people that just do such a such a great

**[42:40]** job. And so these have been some of the most successful teams I've built in the past. And

**[42:44]** it's so fun to work with them. I really appreciate how you take these approaches of knowing

**[42:53]** maybe let's be less worried about the math upfront and focus on customer impact. And then

**[43:00]** we'll measure the results later. I think when you juxtapose that against kind of the current

**[43:06]** environment where the market's really, really rewarding efficiency and making sure that you're

**[43:14]** being hyper efficient with the bets that you're making, if you could maybe walk through your

**[43:20]** decision-making process when you're saying, "Hey, we're going to hire more sales people here. We're

**[43:24]** going to hire more in customer success here. Yes, we need to make a bigger investment in brand.

**[43:29]** Here's why." And then here's some industry experts that we need to get on the roster for XYZ reason.

## 43:36 — Growth at all costs is dead — making bets under scrutiny

**[43:36]** How do you make these decisions with the higher level of scrutiny that companies are in now

**[43:43]** versus five or so years ago? Yeah, it's a real tough one. Tech was a lot easier

**[43:52]** 2021 and earlier because it was all just growth. There's a phrase, "Growth at all costs."

**[44:00]** Eventually, you had to clean that up, especially as you became a public company and things of that

**[44:03]** nature. But it was really just growth was the premium. And now it's, yeah, you still need to

**[44:07]** grow. And growth still has a premium on it, but it's all about you got to be profitable. You got

**[44:12]** to show that you have an efficient, effective, profitable business model that also can grow.

**[44:17]** And so that's one of the big shifts that happened. I would say probably 2022 is when it really kicked

**[44:22]** into gear. And it's a lot more of a delicate balance and you have to make trade offs. You

**[44:27]** have to figure out where you're going to bet. And is there a bet where you feel conviction enough,

**[44:32]** where you're willing to forward invest, you're willing to go into the red a little bit in this

**[44:36]** bet. Overall, as a company, you should never be going into the red. But in this bet, I'm willing

**[44:40]** to take on a higher CAC or I'm willing to take on a little bit of burn here because I feel enough

**[44:47]** conviction and see enough signal that I know that this is going to work. I would say we've talked a

**[44:52]** little bit about a culture of experimentation. You have to do the same thing as a revenue leader and

**[44:56]** say, "Let's go and experiment with this idea." So let's say it's a brand initiative. That's where

**[45:01]** it's really important. You ring fence budget and you say, "Okay, let's go ring fence what we're

**[45:05]** willing to invest and what success looks like. And let's put it out there and let's see if it

**[45:09]** delivered what we thought success looked like." And then let's have a real honest conversation

**[45:13]** where we say, "Are we ready to go big with this or are we going to move this money or are we going

**[45:18]** to go somewhere else?" We see enough signal with this product that we're willing to hire ahead on

**[45:24]** the account executive side and bring in more account executives who we feel confident can go

**[45:29]** and create pipeline and go build this product. And so you just have to make some of those bets.

**[45:34]** And honestly, a lot of it revolves around what are your big bets as a company? If you don't have a

**[45:38]** vision and you don't have clarity in what you're betting on, it's really hard to make those

**[45:42]** decisions. But when we say as a company, "Hey, research flow is a huge bet for us." Okay, well,

**[45:47]** in order to activate research flow, we need to have investments A, B, C, and D. Okay, let's go

**[45:52]** forward and invest, but let's not do, again, 2021, which is like, let's go hire 15 people to go do

**[45:58]** this now. We don't need to scale before we have the signal. Let's invest, gauge the signal,

**[46:04]** signals there, let's invest a little bit more aggressively, signal still there, invest a little

**[46:08]** bit more aggressively. And so it's a constant game of test and iterate, which a lot of functions

**[46:14]** inside of companies have been doing for a long time. And now I think it's time for revenue

**[46:17]** organizations to do that too. I think gone are the days of just saying, "I'm just going to go

**[46:21]** hire 50 AEs and that's my growth strategy." It doesn't necessarily work that way. It's like,

**[46:25]** how do we have measured investment? But then also, and I think one of the things our CFO has been

**[46:30]** fabulous with is that he is very clear on like, hey, let's just make sure that we define what

**[46:34]** success looks like out of the gate. So let's be clear in our own thought process. What does

**[46:38]** success look like? What are we ring fencing for it? Let's go execute, and then let's regroup

**[46:43]** and say, "Did this work or not?" And so I think it's a constant test and iterate is the new model

**[46:48]** for how to decide what goes from there. I think the other thing too, to know what to invest in,

**[46:52]** is you just have to hire really smart people too that are, that have a good read on it, that say,

**[46:56]** "Look, there's 15 things that we could go do. We feel conviction that the signal is leading us to

**[47:01]** this. This is what we want to invest. This is what success looks like. Now let's go and invest. Let's

**[47:05]** go try that thing." And then let's circle up and say, "Did it work or not?" So it may lead to a

**[47:09]** little bit slower, but then you're ensured to keep yourself out of trouble and you're going to stay

**[47:14]** efficient and profitable. So again, but stage one, again, before you do any of that, the most important

**[47:18]** thing is that you can build an efficient, profitable growth model, and then you can go and start to

**[47:26]** play with bets on the back of it. So overall, the company stays efficient and effective, even if one

**[47:31]** bet isn't for a period of time, but you're willing to, you're all signed up with that concept of like,

**[47:36]** we're willing to let something go run for a little bit and see how it works. So we know if we're going

**[47:40]** to scale it aggressively or if we're not. There's a great phrase that was used that Ryan Smith,

## 47:47 — "Nail it, then scale it" and staying close to the signal

**[47:47]** one of the founders of Qualtrics used all the time. He said it was, "Nail it, then scale it."

**[47:50]** And I think that that's the model for business. Absolutely. And I think there are so many that

**[47:57]** are trying to scale it to nail it. So if you can just reverse that order and would love to hear

**[48:06]** in order to stay in touch with the signals on all the bets that you have to balance

**[48:12]** leading the GTM of a company like Typeform, what dashboards, reports, and report reviewing cadences

**[48:19]** do you have to keep you plugged in? Yeah, so there's quite a few. So when it comes to the

**[48:26]** overall core business, the self-serve side of the business, we have a Vitals dashboard that shows

**[48:30]** everything from signups, conversion, all the way down to churn and inactivation. And so we have

**[48:38]** everything, kind of anything and everything in between. Very, very detailed. We have invested

**[48:42]** in a data team. That's amazing. And so they're able to serve us up with the right data that we

**[48:46]** need to look at the funnel holistically and understand what that looks like. On the enterprise

**[48:50]** side, it's a little bit of a different flavor. Now I have product specific and industry specific

**[48:55]** dashboards as well. So I can gauge, hey, what's going on in this product line? What's going on

**[48:59]** in this industry? But then there's kind of a more holistic one and the things that I really focus on

**[49:04]** are inputs and outputs. And so when I look at an organization, if the outputs aren't there,

**[49:09]** you have to go to the inputs. And so a dashboard would typically be, hey, here's what, you know,

**[49:14]** here's what forecasts look like, but then here's what pipe gen looks like over here. And then

**[49:19]** here's actually on an individual rep level, what pipe gen looks like. And so if we're having a

**[49:23]** problem with the outputs not producing, we have the ability to take it down to a campaign level

**[49:28]** and say, is something broken in that area that we need to go think about and focus on? And so that's

**[49:33]** what typical dashboards for me look like is, yes, there's the stuff on, you know, forecast of

**[49:38]** performance against last year, against targets, against quota rollup, against all of these

**[49:42]** different things. You can see all of those like output metrics that are really important. You can

**[49:46]** look at ACV, I can look at all of, you know, deal velocity, that stuff all exists. But what is

**[49:50]** really important for me is that you're also always looking at the inputs as well, because it's,

**[49:55]** it's the other side of the equation of if the outputs aren't there, there's something typically

**[49:58]** upstream on the inputs that may or may not be broken. And then I think again, one of the

**[50:04]** important aspects of that is the world is not dashboards are not always a complete picture,

**[50:09]** you got to be talking to your team, you got to be having conversations and another team meeting I

**[50:13]** joined with the sales team, it was leads are down 36% in this channel. Wow, like, wow, I had no idea,

**[50:22]** let's go look at that and come to find out we had made adjustments on a pricing page that dropped the

**[50:26]** enterprise lead gem form below the fold. It's like, oh, my goodness, okay, well, now we know,

**[50:30]** and we could kick things into gear. And so dashboards are critically important,

**[50:34]** but nothing ever really replaces those direct conversations as well. And so you got to manage

## 50:38 — Wrap

**[50:38]** through both. Brice, I really appreciate everything you shared going from moving type form from just

**[50:46]** forms to expanding through flows, all the mess and excitement that comes with getting your go to

**[50:52]** market team geared up to go through that transition. Really appreciate you sharing also how to manage

**[50:58]** PLG, SLG, the messy middle and all of the advice on where you should be investing now and go to

**[51:06]** market. Brice, I'm a huge fan of type form. Thank you for being on the podcast and can't wait to see

**[51:11]** what you guys do. Absolute pleasure. Thank you, Anthony.