---
title: "AI Made Outreach Worthless. Events Are What's Left"
episode: 120
podcast: "The LeanScale Podcast"
publisher: "LeanScale"
guest: "Alex Reynolds"
guest_title: "Co-Founder & CEO"
date_published: 2026-09-17
date_modified: 2026-09-21
duration: 00:49:59
word_count: 8613
topics: ["demand-generation", "outbound-sales", "ai-in-gtm", "gtm-strategy", "revenue-operations"]
canonical_url: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/alex-reynolds-vendelux-events-are-whats-left/
source: "LeanScale Knowledge Hub — https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge"
license: "Free to quote and cite with attribution to The LeanScale Podcast."
---

# AI Made Outreach Worthless. Events Are What's Left — Full Transcript

> Episode 120 of The LeanScale Podcast, with Alex Reynolds.
> Published September 17, 2026 · 00:49:59 · 8613 words.
> Machine-transcribed and **not diarized** — speaker attribution is inferred, so verify
> attribution against the audio before quoting a specific person.
> Structured breakdown: https://www.leanscale.team/knowledge/podcast/alex-reynolds-vendelux-events-are-whats-left/

## 00:00 — Cold open and intro

**[0:00]** The in-person moment is what defines that trust and that relationship and that is only

**[0:06]** going to become more and more valuable as AI gets better.

**[0:11]** My guest today is Alex Reynolds, co-founder and CEO of Vendalux, the event intelligence

**[0:18]** platform that now tracks more than 250,000 B2B events and has influenced north of $5 billion

**[0:26]** in event spend.

**[0:27]** What are maybe some of the most egregious things you've seen at events where people,

**[0:32]** you know, they're just completely burning their money?

**[0:36]** I've walked the floor and you see 20, 30 sales reps who are all on their phone or they're

**[0:41]** sitting off doing something, you know, on their own.

**[0:44]** You look at that and you know just by looking at that booth that it's a waste of money.

**[0:49]** They know because they're sitting there saying, why did I fly to Vegas, leave my family, leave

**[0:54]** all the deals that I'm currently working on to be in that room when you're in the moment.

**[0:59]** But if you're not taking diligent notes, then you really mess up on that post event follow

**[1:05]** through.

**[1:06]** So I think AI just really helps across that cycle to make sure that you're maximizing

**[1:11]** those in-person human moments when you're there at the show.

**[1:15]** I love it.

**[1:16]** So I don't think events are at risk either of being taken over by AI in any way or being

**[1:25]** made irrelevant.

**[1:26]** I think what's interesting is maybe there have been some forces that have made it maybe

**[1:33]** like easier to work remotely and do things like that.

**[1:35]** But I think when it comes to connecting with your buyers, I see it just getting more and

**[1:40]** more important over time.

## 01:46 — The most common way companies waste money on events

**[1:46]** Alex, you're sitting on data from 250,000 events, $5 billion of influence spend.

**[2:01]** When you look across all of it, what is the most common way you watch companies waste

**[2:06]** money on events?

**[2:08]** They show up and they hope for the best.

**[2:13]** If you think about building a product, you would never just build a product and hope

**[2:18]** that users show up.

**[2:21]** But when it comes to events, so often companies, they go because they've always gone or they

**[2:25]** go because they think they have to be in the room and they show up and expect that everything

**[2:31]** is going to come to them.

**[2:33]** The reality is that the vast majority of event success is determined before you even walk

**[2:39]** in the room.

**[2:42]** I think a lot of people just assume, "Hey, we got to be there for branding or if I show

**[2:47]** up, they'll come."

**[2:50]** What are maybe some of the most egregious things you've seen at events where people,

**[2:55]** you know, they're just completely burning their money?

**[3:01]** Some of these major sponsors, if you have the huge booth in the middle of the floor,

**[3:07]** you're spending two, five, even $10 million for that activation and I've walked the floor

**[3:14]** and you see 20, 30 sales reps who are all on their phone or they're sitting off doing

**[3:19]** something on their own and you look at that and you know just by looking at that booth

**[3:23]** that it's a waste of money.

**[3:25]** They know because they're sitting there saying, "Why did I fly to Vegas, leave my family,

**[3:31]** leave all the deals that I'm currently working on to be in that room?"

**[3:35]** But because events are so analog, because they happen once a year, these companies just

**[3:41]** continue to make these mistakes because they believe that they're making the right decision

**[3:46]** and they oftentimes don't know until they have everybody on site that it was a major

**[3:52]** problem.

## 03:53 — Why events are the final frontier of outbound

**[3:53]** Yeah, and I do think, so post COVID, post AI, there's been so much noise on Outbound

**[4:04]** via email, LinkedIn, any other digital outreach that you can have that I do think events is

**[4:10]** opening up this kind of like back to basics, but final frontier of Outbound and people

**[4:16]** are really craving some type of in-person connection and building trust that way and

**[4:21]** I think there's even opportunities.

**[4:23]** Yes, of course, you have the big shows, the big marquee ones for your industry, whatever

**[4:28]** that is.

**[4:29]** There's also a lot of micro events, smaller events, mid-market events that if you really

**[4:34]** get this dialed in and optimized can be super valuable.

**[4:38]** A hundred percent.

**[4:39]** The best companies that I see are taking advantage of that as often as possible.

**[4:45]** So whether it's a dinner or a VIP activation, I've seen helicopter rides, like something

**[4:50]** that's going to entice people and then combine both your existing customers with prospects,

**[4:58]** have them talk to each other and as you can be the best seller in the world, tell somebody

**[5:03]** how amazing your product is, but that's not nearly as valuable as having a customer who

**[5:08]** loves you come in and say, "You have to use this product because here's all the value

**[5:13]** that I got."

**[5:14]** Yeah.

**[5:15]** Well, walk me through what good looks like, so if you're a company, you're thinking about

**[5:22]** doing events, you're getting it in your strategy, or you're already doing some events, how do

**[5:27]** you approach it to where you make sure you're getting the most ROI on those events possible

**[5:32]** and how do you get them really dialed in?

**[5:34]** Yeah, I think it's all about being where your buyers and your customers are going to be,

**[5:41]** which is easier said than done, but essentially, there's 30,000 events that happen every single

**[5:47]** year.

**[5:48]** There's also all of those potential smaller events that people could have access to.

**[5:53]** And so understanding where everyone in your CRM is going to be can be challenging, but

**[6:00]** if you can map that out, then you can understand exactly where you need to be as a company.

**[6:06]** So where are you deploying your chips?

**[6:08]** You can't go to a million events a year, there's going to be limitations.

**[6:13]** And so how do you allocate those dollars and those people?

**[6:17]** So someone like Ramp, for example, they go to 300 events every year, they have 500 sellers,

**[6:24]** and so what are the different permutations and combinations of who goes where and where

**[6:29]** you're actually deploying your dollars is really somewhat of a math equation and depends

**[6:35]** on where those actual companies and people are going to be.

**[6:38]** That's the missing ingredient that you need in order to make smarter decisions about where

**[6:43]** to go and who to send.

**[6:46]** Yeah, one of the things we do at LeanScale for our customers, it's a project we call

**[6:50]** Market Map, where we tier the customer base or the prospect base and everyone who's in

**[6:57]** the market and then tier them by the highest propensity to buy.

**[7:00]** So the people, hey, no brainer, they should be buying and using your product.

**[7:05]** And that exercise alone can increase conversion rate by 30% to 40% because now you're targeting

**[7:12]** people who actually have a strong need, of course, reduces time and stage as well, which

**[7:18]** all those little incremental changes can pound over time.

**[7:22]** When you're looking at an event strategy, what's the math equation that you're looking

**[7:28]** at or what are the metrics that you're looking at or process that you follow to make sure

**[7:34]** you have the right mix of events and the right volume of events and you are actually budgeting

**[7:41]** appropriately for those events because you could pick the right ones, but if you don't

**[7:46]** send enough people, you don't have the right brand presence, then you might as well not

**[7:49]** gone.

**[7:50]** Yeah, it's a really challenging problem to solve and if you get it wrong, you have to

**[7:56]** wait a whole year for that event to come around again.

## 08:01 — The 10% rule — booth presence vs. a suite off-site

**[8:01]** So I think generally some events are 100 people, some events are 150,000 people like CES.

**[8:09]** And so understanding how many total people are going to be there, what percentage of

**[8:14]** those people are your buyers or your current customers is kind of step one.

**[8:19]** And then you can back into what kind of a presence do you want to have if it's a target

**[8:24]** rich environment, so for the majority of the people on the floor, or let's say at least

**[8:28]** 10% are potential buyers, then your show presence is really important because you will have

**[8:36]** people walking the floor who are going to be interested potential buyers for you.

**[8:40]** If you have a much smaller audience, so let's say only three or four percent of the audience

**[8:46]** is going to be relevant for you, then it's much more about taking a targeted approach.

**[8:51]** You might not even need a big booth presence, it might be more about having a suite off-site

**[8:56]** and you're bringing people to you and it's more of an outbound versus an inbound type

**[9:01]** of motion.

**[9:02]** So really understanding the percentage of buyers and what that looks like is key and

**[9:07]** then mapping those people to your own stakeholders.

**[9:11]** So of course, if it's a very senior environment and you're sending a bunch of SDRs, that's

**[9:17]** probably not going to resonate in the same way versus sending an executive and so making

**[9:23]** sure that you map the right stakeholders from your side to the audience that's going to

**[9:28]** be there.

**[9:29]** Of course, if you're looking at CRM data, you could understand I want to send Timmy,

**[9:33]** not Tommy because even though Tommy is amazing at events, his pipeline is not going to be

**[9:38]** there whereas Timmy has 10 active deals and call it $3 million, $4 million of potential

**[9:44]** pipeline that could convert if he goes to the event.

**[9:48]** So I think in general, the more data that you have at your fingertips to be able to

**[9:52]** make these more informed decisions versus again, most companies are saying, okay, it's

**[9:56]** our industry event, we've gone the last eight years, who knows how we did but we really

**[10:04]** like going to Vegas and so we may as well just go back and then they're surprised when

**[10:10]** your CFO asks you after the event, how do we do when nobody knows?

**[10:15]** And what's a good benchmark?

**[10:16]** So if I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to go to an event, let's say it's a good one, that

**[10:21]** 10% range, I think that's a good benchmark at the threshold people should have in their

**[10:25]** head like, hey, 10% potentially marketed by your product.

**[10:29]** Let's say it's a good one, 10% of the people there are potential customers.

**[10:34]** What type of ROI should I be expecting from an event?

**[10:38]** Like what is good look like, what does great look like and what type of performance is

**[10:44]** like, hey, maybe you shouldn't go to this one next year.

## 10:48 — 3x is a terrible bar. The best teams hit 18-20x

**[10:48]** So generally when I talk to event marketers and CMOs, their bar of what they're looking

**[10:54]** for is 3x ROI, I think that's ridiculously low.

**[10:59]** So that's maybe a nice get in the door value.

**[11:03]** When I look at plans that marketers have had and they brought in and they try to track

**[11:08]** the actual ROI that they're seeing, some of these events on the low end are very far in

**[11:13]** the negative and yet they still go back sometimes.

**[11:16]** So even though on paper with the model that they have, they're saying that this was negative

**[11:21]** ROI, they're still going back and maybe they're claiming there's brand value or whatever else.

**[11:27]** But on the other end of the spectrum, I mean, I've seen companies that I think do this really

**[11:33]** well that say, no, our bar's not 3x, it's 18x or it's 20x and you can control both sides

**[11:40]** of that equation.

**[11:41]** You can say, we're going to deploy less dollars overall, but we're going to do it in a smarter

**[11:45]** way and we're also going to see more impact.

**[11:49]** The other component of this is the timing.

**[11:51]** So I see a lot of marketers or teams in general, they're looking at ROI based off of the leads

**[11:57]** that they generate from their booth.

## 12:00 — Badge scans are a vanity metric — the 6-to-18 month window

**[12:00]** And so they might scan a thousand badges, but that's a great vanity metric.

**[12:06]** But what does it actually mean for your business?

**[12:09]** In general, we see that it takes anywhere from six to 18 months to see the true impact

**[12:14]** from an event.

**[12:15]** But most people don't track events that far out.

**[12:18]** After three or four months, they've kind of moved on to the next thing.

**[12:22]** And so really being able to say, okay, how many deals do we generate?

**[12:27]** How many of those actually closed, how many deals were in process that we were able to

**[12:31]** touch?

**[12:32]** What kind of attribution do we have as those close?

**[12:35]** And then also, what current customers are we impacting?

**[12:40]** Our data shows that if you have current customers and you see them at an event, they're more

**[12:45]** likely to renew and they're more likely to upsell, but often marketers get zero credit

**[12:50]** for that because it's much more difficult to tie the actual attribution to.

**[12:54]** Yeah, I think that's a pretty big disparity, the teams that are expecting 3X, 18X.

**[13:00]** And I do want to, when you're using those numbers, you're saying return on investment

**[13:05]** compared to closed one booked revenue, right?

**[13:09]** Not a pipeline return.

**[13:11]** Revenue.

**[13:12]** Yeah.

**[13:13]** No.

**[13:14]** And I think you bring up a good point, I literally wasn't even thinking about it, which probably

**[13:17]** is a sign of the systemic problem of events.

**[13:20]** We in the past have gone to events mainly for customers.

**[13:25]** So we know, hey, 60% of our customers are going to be there.

**[13:28]** So we're going to go, we're going to show up, we're going to spend time with them.

**[13:32]** And I think that is a huge piece that's left out of the value equation.

**[13:37]** I'm sure it may be tracking upsells, expansions, maybe references as possible.

## 13:43 — Events and retention: the renewal impact nobody gets credit for

**[13:43]** Do you also take a look at just retention in general as well?

**[13:48]** Yeah.

**[13:49]** Yeah.

**[13:50]** We see the customers who are touched multiple times at events, and that could be a big trade

**[13:56]** show or it could be a VIP dinner, are significantly more likely to renew than ones who are not.

**[14:03]** There's of course diminishing marginal returns.

**[14:05]** So the first three touch points are more important than later down the line.

**[14:11]** But generally, anything in the 10 to 12 range is kind of ideal.

**[14:17]** And it makes sense, right?

**[14:18]** I mean, at the end of the day, whether it's a new sale or it's retention, I mean, they're

**[14:23]** buying a product, but they're really, it's an emotional sale.

**[14:28]** And I think that when you're in the room with somebody, and especially if you're at an event,

**[14:34]** you both have left your families, you've deliberately decided to go on this quest.

**[14:41]** And there's a big opportunity cost for that.

**[14:43]** And so people are just more primed and open to building new relationships.

**[14:48]** And so they're willing to share more information.

**[14:51]** You're able to build trust more quickly.

**[14:53]** You're able to understand, what is that procurement cycle or like, are you seeing pressure on

**[14:59]** the renewal in a way that if you ask that on a video call like this, someone might just

**[15:04]** not give you the same level of insight.

**[15:07]** And so those types of moments are just so valuable when you think about like building

**[15:12]** long-term value with customers.

**[15:14]** Yeah, I agree.

**[15:16]** And I'm younger in my career, I'd go to any event, whatever.

**[15:20]** And if the company wanted to fly me out, then I was game for it.

**[15:24]** Now, I have three kids, another one on the way in November.

**[15:27]** I am very selective.

**[15:29]** Congrats.

**[15:30]** Thank you.

**[15:31]** Thank you very much.

**[15:32]** But I'm very selective about the events I go to, and when I go to them, I'm serious

**[15:38]** about them, and I'm there to make it as efficient and meaningful as possible.

**[15:44]** And then get back home because I have a lot of responsibilities at home.

**[15:48]** But yes, it definitely does put me in that head space where, hey, this is a big deal.

**[15:54]** Now I'm only going to, let's call it six events a year or so.

**[16:00]** Yeah.

**[16:01]** So those will, oh, I was just going to say, so those are pretty big deal and I only have

**[16:07]** a few of them that I'm spending time in.

**[16:09]** Right.

**[16:10]** And so imagine you, one of those six events, if you go and you walk in the room and the

**[16:14]** first thing you say is, you know, what am I doing here?

**[16:16]** Right?

**[16:17]** Not only give you suffered the opportunity cost of being away from your family, missing

**[16:21]** how many bedtime routines and all of that.

**[16:26]** And instead you're in this, in the middle of nowhere, somewhere in a room without the

**[16:31]** people, right?

**[16:32]** Like that, I think every, everyone who's been to an event has felt that moment of walking

**[16:36]** in and just saying, you know, what am I doing here?

**[16:40]** And it's not easy to fix, right?

**[16:41]** So the pain is high when you do it wrong, the rewards are incredibly fruitful when you

**[16:48]** do it right.

**[16:49]** And kind of that high risk, high reward aspect of it makes for very diverse outcomes.

**[16:55]** No, 100%.

**[16:58]** Well, walk me through, there's a big problem with the black box of data and even having

**[17:05]** visibility into the full impact of an event and I, everything you're saying, I have literally

**[17:11]** been in those meetings where like, Oh, it's a branding thing.

**[17:13]** Oh, we got to be there because our customers are there.

**[17:15]** Oh, we have to be there to show up against our competitors.

**[17:17]** People are going to take this as a weird sign.

**[17:19]** If we're not going, I think all that is, is garbage.

**[17:22]** I think you need to have a really concrete ROI, uh, but very difficult to calculate.

**[17:28]** So what is the solution to going through a lot of unstructured, messy data, and then

**[17:37]** making sense of it so you can make a decision on that event next time?

**[17:42]** Well, uh, if you want to do this manually, then there's not a lot of options out there,

**[17:48]** right?

**[17:49]** I mean, I think with something like Claude, it helps to be able to connect your CRM, uh,

**[17:54]** to understand and look at the events that are out there.

**[17:56]** But the, the piece of information that is incredibly difficult to find, it's not public

**[18:01]** with data is, you know, the attendees of these events, right?

**[18:05]** So you can, you can do research and find events that are out there.

**[18:09]** Maybe some of the sponsor information is, is public, uh, speakers are public so that

**[18:14]** the information disappears over time.

**[18:16]** Uh, but really understanding who the attendees are going to be at an event is difficult.

## 18:22 — Half of all tickets sell in the last two weeks

**[18:22]** And part of the problem is, uh, 50% of event attendees buy tickets in the last two weeks,

**[18:29]** which is kind of wild to think about, right?

**[18:31]** So imagine that you're the event that is wild.

**[18:33]** I didn't know that.

**[18:34]** That's insane.

**[18:35]** Yeah.

**[18:36]** And 75% buy in the last month.

**[18:38]** So we, we partner with a lot of these events and, uh, the, the folks who are in charge

**[18:44]** of attendee acquisition, right?

**[18:46]** The delegates, if you talk to them a month before the event, oftentimes they're terrified,

**[18:51]** uh, right?

**[18:52]** Because, you know, of course everybody wants to know three, six months in advance who's

**[18:57]** going to be at the show, but the showrunner doesn't even know because so many of the tickets

**[19:01]** are sold at the 11th hour and it's only getting worse pre-COVID, you know, 50% of tickets

**[19:07]** were sold in the last month.

**[19:09]** Uh, so that's shrunk, you know, uh, it's been cut in half.

**[19:14]** And so as a result, it's really hard to make these data driven, uh, decisions.

**[19:18]** And so what we've done early on is really to build out the most robust data set about

**[19:26]** humans on the move, right?

**[19:27]** Where are these people and companies are going to be, uh, we have a lot of confirmed data

**[19:32]** coming in, but we also have a predictive engine that will look at, you know, okay, Anthony,

**[19:37]** you've been to an event three of the last four years, there's probably a good chance

**[19:41]** that you're going to go back, even if you haven't bought a ticket yet.

**[19:44]** And so we're, we're combining all of these different disparate data sources.

**[19:49]** It's messy.

**[19:50]** It's dirty.

**[19:51]** It's, you know, rolling around in the mud.

**[19:52]** But when you have that and then you overlay a company's CRM data on top of that, you can

**[19:59]** make very fast and informed decisions about where to go and who to send.

**[20:06]** And so, you know, for example, if I told you that next week, you know, 10 of your buyers

**[20:12]** worth $20 million, we're going to be, uh, you know, in San Diego, uh, what would you

**[20:19]** do?

**[20:20]** Yeah.

**[20:21]** It's a no brainer.

**[20:22]** You get on a flight.

**[20:24]** Right.

**[20:25]** So, so the, so kind of because the data is so valuable, even if it comes in at the 11th

**[20:30]** hour, you are capable of making fast decisions.

**[20:33]** If you have a strong feedback loop, which can literally change the outcome of your entire

**[20:38]** year, uh, as a rep or, you know, as, as a founder, uh, you know, if you're able to act

**[20:43]** on that, but most people can't because they don't have access to that information.

**[20:47]** Yeah.

**[20:48]** And I'm even thinking, I'm thinking out loud, correct me if this thought process is wrong,

**[20:52]** but even if you weren't going to go to an event, um, I've, I've played the game plenty

**[20:57]** of times where, Hey, I'm just going to go as an attendee, but really I'm lining up lunches,

**[21:02]** coffees, whatever, uh, knowing people are going to be out there.

**[21:05]** And then I think it's a pretty harmless outreach to just say, Hey, I'm going to be at this

**[21:09]** event.

**[21:10]** You know, are you going to be in town for it?

**[21:12]** So if you had showing me like, okay, you've been three times, probably going to go again.

**[21:18]** Yeah.

**[21:19]** Send an outreach Anthony.

**[21:20]** That's likely.

**[21:21]** And if not, it's not as negative as other forms of outreach.

**[21:26]** Like this is an actual relevant outreach that you could send to this person that wouldn't

**[21:31]** count negative against your brand, because I do think some people are sending a lot of

**[21:35]** outreach right now that they're better off not sending anything at all.

**[21:40]** Yeah.

**[21:41]** I mean, some of the, some of the signals that people are using to try to, you know, personalize

**[21:47]** the emails are just awful, at least the ones that I get, I mean, someone, I got an email

**[21:52]** a couple of weeks ago, somebody saying, it's so great that we're in the same state and

**[21:56]** I'm in New York city and they're in Buffalo, uh, you know, which may as well be on the other

**[22:00]** side of the planet.

**[22:02]** So, uh, you know, or, oh, I see you went to, you know, this high school or something like

**[22:06]** that.

**[22:07]** It just, it doesn't, it falls flat.

**[22:10]** And we, I mean, as part of our platform, we help book meetings for our customers.

**[22:15]** And so we are doing outreach, uh, via different channels to help create that, you know, unique

**[22:21]** moment in person.

**[22:23]** And so we can see that, uh, you know, when we do outreach based off of trying to create

**[22:29]** an in-person moment, uh, our hit rate from, you know, cold outreach to an actual meeting

**[22:36]** that we secure is one to 2%, uh, which is, you know, pretty high, uh, my understanding

**[22:42]** versus when we do more virtual events and there isn't that, you know, Hey, we're both

**[22:47]** going to be in the same city touch point, then, you know, it might take 1500 emails

**[22:52]** just to get a response.

**[22:54]** So the, the disparity there is pretty astronomical, uh, and just knowing where somebody is going

**[23:00]** to be creates that FOMO and that time pressure where you're saying, Hey, you know, our, our

**[23:06]** only opportunity to meet in person is going to be at this event next week.

**[23:10]** And if we don't take advantage of that, then we may never happen again.

**[23:14]** And there's something kind of like magical and serendipitous about that that I think really

**[23:19]** resonates with people, uh, you know, kind of in their core.

**[23:22]** Yeah. I think so too. And, and that's where it's also low risk. So if you send it, nobody

**[23:29]** responds. I don't think anyone would take offense to it where I would take offense if

**[23:32]** somebody was like, Oh, I saw you went to this high school and I have a third cousin who

**[23:36]** went there. You want to book a meeting? No. Um, yeah, I'm offended. You even sent this.

**[23:43]** Now I'm like, I like you less than before. Yeah. I do think so. It's interesting point

**[23:48]** because I think I talked to a lot of marketers who are really scared about that false, uh,

**[23:54]** false positive, right? Where they're like, we have predicted data. And so a lot of customers

**[24:01]** will say, Oh, I reached out to this person and they said, they're not going to be at

**[24:03]** the event. And I was like, okay, cool. What did you do next? And they say, some of them,

**[24:08]** the smart ones are say, Oh, then I asked if they wanted to have a virtual meeting and

**[24:12]** they said, yes. I'm like, okay, so what are we talking about here? You got a meeting with

**[24:16]** your prospect, uh, using this, you know, this signal. And, and so, yeah, to your point,

**[24:21]** I think some people are so concerned about, you know, well, what if, what if they're not

**[24:25]** going, or what if I reach out and it doesn't land and with the wrong signal, I think that

**[24:31]** is, is a valid concern. But if it's about an event, I mean, you're, you're trying to

**[24:38]** meet with somebody in person. Like that's a very natural human motion that we've been

**[24:42]** doing for thousands of years. So I don't know. It's, it's, it's just interesting, the psychology

**[24:48]** or I guess said another way you would never, if somebody was running an ad campaign and

**[24:54]** they have a, you know, someone clicks on that and it's not someone who's in their ICP, like

**[24:59]** that's generally accepted, right? People are going to click on your ads, even if they're

**[25:02]** not an ICP and you factor that into your math equation as a demand generation, uh, you know,

**[25:09]** professional demand, demand generation marketer. And yet with events or with outreach, you

**[25:14]** know, if somebody has a reaction saying they're not going to be there, it seems like there's,

**[25:19]** there's just not as much sophistication around that motion, at least not yet.

**[25:23]** Yeah. Well, I think it's, I think you could dial in your messaging and make it feel really

**[25:28]** organic and natural. Um, and to where, like you said, even if they aren't going, it can

**[25:34]** tee up another interaction with them. Um, what are some other things that teams are

**[25:42]** doing? Cause you mentioned everything happens in the prep. Everything happens before the

**[25:47]** event even starts. So we talked a lot about, okay, let's make sure you're going to the

**[25:52]** right ones. Let's see the ones that have an ROI from previous events you've gone to use

**[25:58]** the platform to do that. Let's get predictive about where your buyers are and see what events

**[26:02]** they're likely to be going to and throw those new ones on. Okay. Once you have selected

**[26:08]** the list of events that you're ready to go tackle, what are the best teams doing to prep

**[26:15]** and execute really well for an event?

## 26:18 — What good prep looks like: the game plan and the activation calendar

**[26:18]** Yeah. So I think it's, it's sort of like, what is your game plan for the event? And

**[26:23]** what do I mean by that? Uh, the best teams, if it's a three day event, they are running

**[26:28]** multiple activations with a stated goal, uh, you know, throughout, throughout that event.

**[26:34]** So they might do, uh, like our executive buyer is a CMO, right? And so we might do, you know,

**[26:41]** you might have a CMO activation that's going to be, it can't just be a dinner, right? It

**[26:45]** has to be something that's enticing. They're going to have that, they're going to be invited

**[26:48]** to 20 different dinners. So how do you do something that's unique that stands out that

**[26:54]** when they, when they see that invite come in, they say, Oh, I need to be at this. And

**[26:58]** so, I mean, literally at Cannes Lion, you know, the advertising event in the South of

**[27:03]** France, I mean, people were doing helicopter rides to, to Saint Tropez. And, and so, you

**[27:08]** know, and Chateau parties. And I mean, it gets kind of crazy that's on one end of the

**[27:13]** spectrum, but just doing, doing something that will be unique, uh, or even an opportunity

**[27:19]** to learn. And then for maybe your, your core buyer, is there something, a different type

**[27:24]** of activation that will resonate with them. We already talked about kind of combining

**[27:29]** the customers and prospects. I think it's something that, that works really well. And

**[27:34]** just making sure that, you know, you're not, no dinner, no lunch is left up to chance.

**[27:40]** And so how are you taking advantage of every single one of those motions and then dividing

**[27:45]** and conquering, you know, amongst your teams, you have the right people in the room for

**[27:50]** CMO dinner. That's going to be your, you know, your CEO or your CMO for, you know, maybe

**[27:56]** the, your, your core buyer. Maybe it's a different audience. And then, you know, and then being

**[28:02]** very conscious too, of what the, what the, the schedule is for the event. So I've heard

**[28:10]** horror stories of people creating an amazing activation, spending a ton of money on it.

**[28:15]** And nobody shows up. Why does nobody show up? Because they happen to pick the time when,

**[28:21]** you know, the chain smokers or Elton John was performing. And so all of a sudden you

**[28:26]** went from something that could have been generating, you know, millions of dollars in pipeline

**[28:29]** to zero just because you, you chose the wrong day. So it really is, you know, the execution

**[28:36]** aspect of this is so important and just, and it can go wrong in so many different ways.

**[28:43]** Oh my gosh. I'm sure there are lots of horror stories with that. So yes, absolutely. Well,

**[28:51]** I think that's really helpful because I, a lot of people spend a lot of money on these

**[28:54]** events. A lot of time there's opportunity cost to it as well. So getting those things

**[29:00]** dialed in is super important. I I'd love to maybe hear a little bit about your story about

**[29:07]** what got you inspired to build tech for this problem. And I don't know if it goes back

**[29:14]** to some of your time at Shutterstock and I know you have entrepreneurship in your blood

**[29:20]** as well. So I would just love to hear how you ended up doing this. What inspired you

**[29:25]** to be doing what you're doing today? Yeah. So from like a very early age, kind of like

**[29:31]** in-person moments have, have really kind of defined my life. I mean, my, I moved around

**[29:38]** a lot as a, as a kid in the Northeast. And so I found that I was constantly kind of bringing

**[29:45]** different groups of people together and, you know, old friend group and new friend group

**[29:49]** and seeing kind of the, you know, the advantages of, of what that could look like. And so bringing

**[29:56]** people together has been, has been core. I met my co-founder at an event during a Blizzard.

**[30:03]** So there were supposed to be hundreds of people at the show and only a handful of people showed

**[30:07]** up. He's from Maine. I'm from Boston. So we, you know, we were two of the only crazy people

**[30:13]** to actually show up, but that built a bond for us. And, you know, it's something that

**[30:19]** we, you know, working together 10 years later. I met my wife at an Apple store. We just sat

**[30:24]** down next to each other in the Marina in San Francisco and started talking. So like these

**[30:29]** like serendipitous moments have just really played out and been so influential for me.

**[30:36]** And you know, this, this business is the second time that I've tried to build a business in

**[30:41]** sort of this like in-person space. Before this, I built a company called Swift intro.

**[30:48]** And we, what we did is we looked at the LinkedIn connection graph to understand, okay, if Anthony,

**[30:55]** if you and I are not connected personally, but we have a lot of second degree connections

**[31:00]** in common, then we might, we should probably meet. And so we helped thousands of people

**[31:07]** do these kind of one-on-one professional, you know, date kind of things. And, and it

**[31:15]** was gaining a ton of traction. There was a lot of buzz and then LinkedIn shut down their

**[31:18]** API. And so overnight, we just lost access to our number one source of data and ended

**[31:26]** up killing the company. So that was a good lesson in understanding, okay, you know, building

**[31:32]** a data business, you need to make sure that you have a robust, robust data sources.

## 31:38 — Shutterstock, eight-figure deals, and the event that closed them

**[31:38]** But then at Shutterstock set, my co-founder, not co-founder, Stefan and I, we built a hundred

**[31:44]** million ARR data business together. And for us, we were doing, you know, 78, eight figure

**[31:50]** deals with massive, massive companies. And we just found that, you know, not surprisingly,

**[31:55]** when you meet those people in person, it really goes a long way to, you know, driving outcomes.

**[32:01]** And so we found that events, when we went to the right events, it was magic. I mean,

**[32:06]** we'd meet all the right people and like literally we close, you know, seven and eight figure

**[32:10]** deals because we met the right person at an event. On the flip side, though, if we went

**[32:15]** to a bad event, or even if we went to a great event, but didn't get FaceTime with the right

**[32:20]** people, then it was a huge waste of time and money. And so we kind of looked at each other

**[32:24]** and said like, this is this amazing untapped channel. But, you know, if we mess it up,

**[32:30]** then we have to again, wait a whole year to try and do it again. And so we just knew that

**[32:35]** there had to be a more data driven way to make this happen and just saw that like all

**[32:41]** these decisions, these multimillion dollar decisions were being made based on politics

**[32:46]** and gut, not data and insights. And so we knew there had to be a better way.

**[32:51]** Well, I'm, I'm really excited that you've done what you've done, because I agree. And

**[32:56]** I think it's better for, it's better for everybody. It's better for the attendees of these events

**[33:00]** as well, because when you show up to an event, as a participant, you want to have relevant

**[33:07]** vendors there, you want to have relevant meetings with people that you're actually going to

**[33:10]** do business with, you don't want to be lost in a sea of random companies that don't really

**[33:15]** connect with you. So I think, like, increasing that propensity for people to get connected

**[33:20]** and have meaningful conversations, it's good for everyone.

**[33:25]** We almost, we, we kind of see three groups in this, in this ecosystem, right? There's

**[33:31]** the big brands who are sponsoring and exhibiting at the shows, there are the events themselves,

**[33:37]** and then there are the attendees. And to your point, like, everybody wants the same thing.

**[33:42]** All three of those parties want the event to be amazing. They want the right people

**[33:46]** to meet and, you know, generate all this value. And, and that could be for sales, but it could

**[33:51]** also be for learning and development. It could be for, you know, partnerships, M&A could be

**[33:57]** for recruiting. Like there's all kinds of reasons why people want to meet other people

**[34:02]** in person professionally, right? We're not talking about dating, but professionally.

**[34:07]** That's what the Apple store is for. So we'll save an Apple store for that genre.

**[34:12]** Exactly. And so the problem is that these different parties are, there's just not data

**[34:17]** availability and data sharing amongst them for, for many reasons, for privacy reasons,

**[34:23]** for security reasons. And so, you know, we're trying to sit in the middle of that ecosystem

**[34:28]** to help all of those parties, you know, make to make them all a win together, essentially,

**[34:34]** because when the event is amazing, everybody wins. The big brands that are there are happy.

**[34:40]** The event is happy. The attendees are happy. And so, you know, it's not a zero sum problem.

**[34:44]** It's, you know, collectively we can all win together.

## 34:49 — What AI actually did to outbound

**[34:49]** I think it's a really exciting time for events because I think the relevance of events are

**[34:55]** really heightening, especially with the impact AI is having on Outbound. I think it's really

**[35:02]** producing diminishing returns on the Outbound side. You have to be very creative and have

**[35:06]** enticing offers on Outbound for it to be effective. I think a lot of companies are lacking that

**[35:11]** creativity. So I would love your opinion on what you've seen AI do to Outbound, what you

**[35:16]** think is going to happen as people get their hands on more and more of these tools. And

**[35:21]** then how do you think AI is going to impact the events world as well?

**[35:25]** Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think in general, AI is incredible. And so it's allowing us

**[35:34]** to give me a superpowers and that's great as an individual. But what that means is that

**[35:41]** everybody is able to just all of a sudden send, you know, hundreds of thousands, if

**[35:45]** not millions of emails and cadences. And so on the flip side, if you're somebody who's

**[35:54]** in demand, if you're a big buyer, your inbox is just overloaded with email. I mean, I know

**[36:01]** a lot of people who are not even going into their inbox anymore. They're telling Claude,

**[36:07]** you know, or their agent to summarize their email and let them know what they need. And

**[36:12]** so, you know, it's becoming more and more challenging to actually break through and

**[36:18]** reach these target buyers. You know, you could have the best subject line and the best offer

**[36:26]** in the world. But if somebody is just never going to go into their inbox, then they're

**[36:31]** going to miss that every time. And so we're seeing this with, you know, response rates

**[36:37]** decreasing, conversion rates decreasing from outbound. And so it still works certainly,

**[36:42]** but at least from our perspective, we're seeing a lot more success with calling than we are

**[36:49]** with email outbound just because people are still picking up the phone and, you know,

**[36:55]** you can't do a ton of automated outbound calls, at least not right now. So in general, it

**[37:04]** seems like the outbound email channel is degrading. And then I think people are looking for other

**[37:11]** opportunities to really break through the noise and be able to, you know, find those

**[37:18]** buyers. So again, calling seems to be a good answer, but I think events in general, a lot

**[37:24]** of people are coming to us frantic saying, you know, our pipeline goals have not changed

**[37:29]** if anything they've increased and our outbound channel is decreasing. So we need to fix and

**[37:35]** we need to fix fast and events are one of those opportunities.

**[37:42]** I love it. Well, I don't think events are at risk either of being taken over by AI in

**[37:52]** any way or being made irrelevant. I think what's interesting is maybe there have been

**[37:59]** some forces that have made it maybe like easier to work remotely and do things like that.

**[38:03]** But I think when it comes to connecting with your buyers, I see it just getting more and

**[38:07]** more important over time to find a way to meet people in person because I don't think

**[38:13]** there's anything else that's going to be as meaningful or as enticing for somebody to

**[38:19]** connect with. So I think as people are evaluating their pipeline Gen strategies, I mean, a good

**[38:28]** portion has to be going to an event, the event strategy. Do you have any guidance on and

**[38:33]** I'm sure it may change per company, but any guidance for how much you should allocate

**[38:39]** in terms of overall marketing spend on events versus other channels?

## 38:45 — Proof of humanity in the age of AI avatars

**[38:45]** Yeah, well, just on the trust point quickly. I mean, I think it's only going to get worse

**[38:51]** in the sense that we're already starting to see AI be able to create avatars and things

**[38:59]** like that. And they're pretty good. And so I trust that this is you, Anthony, but I mean,

**[39:04]** we've never met. And so for all I know, you're somebody completely different somewhere else.

**[39:10]** And that doesn't necessarily matter in this conversation. But if I'm buying an expensive

**[39:16]** solution from you, then it matters a lot. I don't want to get scammed. I don't want to

**[39:20]** buy a false bill of goods. And so this sort of proof of humanity or this trust to know

**[39:28]** that you are, in fact, who you say you are becomes just even more difficult as AI and

**[39:35]** all the solutions that it powers gets better. And so meeting in person, whether that's at

**[39:39]** a big event or, you know, I mean, you could expand the definition of what an event is.

**[39:46]** You doing a roadshow could be an event, right? I think the important thing, people coming

**[39:52]** and traveling to your city, if you are able to activate that in a good way, it could be

**[39:58]** considered an event. And so I think really the in-person moment is what defines that

**[40:05]** trust and that relationship. And that is only going to become more and more valuable as

**[40:10]** AI gets better.

**[40:14]** I completely agree.

## 40:16 — The three phases: pre-event, at-event, post-event

**[40:16]** Yeah, I mean, when it comes to success at events, you know, it's really important to

**[40:25]** master all three phases, right? There's everything you have to do pre-event, there's things you

**[40:29]** have to do at the event, and there's things you have to do post-event. And so and if you

**[40:34]** mess up any of them, then you get no value from that particular buyer. So for example,

**[40:41]** I was at an event in Toronto last week, and I was there to build partnerships and meet

**[40:49]** buyers and meet our customers, but there were also people who saw that I was going to be

**[40:53]** there and they wanted to meet with me. And it was really interesting. I mean, there were

**[40:56]** some people who they failed step one pre-event because they didn't reach out before the event.

**[41:03]** And so they hope to find me at the booth or they hope to find me in the app. And oftentimes,

**[41:08]** you know, we never were able to connect because of that. Some people reached out ahead of

**[41:12]** time, they booked a meeting. So that's a check. But then they failed in step two, where, you

**[41:18]** know, they either they never came to the meeting itself or didn't come prepared or anything

**[41:25]** like that. And then the worst for them at least would be failing in step three, right? You

**[41:31]** do everything right before the event. You have an amazing meeting, you have my attention,

**[41:36]** I'm interested, and then there's no follow-up. And, you know, I mean, I can't tell you how

**[41:41]** often we see failure in one of those three phases. So I think AI really helps a lot with

**[41:47]** the pre-event and the post-event phase, right? It allows you to run your playbooks and kind

**[41:54]** of, you know, do everything in a perfect way as opposed to needing to rely on, you know,

**[42:00]** events and timing because we're busy. We're busy before and after events and we just forget

**[42:05]** to do these things. And then during the event, I think something like an AI note-taker will

**[42:10]** help a lot because again, you have so many conversations at an event, you meet hundreds

**[42:14]** of people potentially. It feels great when you're in the moment, but if you're not taking

**[42:19]** diligent notes, then you really mess up on that post-event follow-through. So I think

**[42:24]** AI just really helps across that cycle to make sure that you're maximizing those in-person

**[42:31]** human moments when you're there at the show.

**[42:34]** I have a question on that because I value in-person time so much like internally with

**[42:40]** the team too, but I have gotten so spoiled with transcripts on virtual calls. And I mean,

**[42:49]** we'll just set up a meeting like, "Hey, let's talk about this thing we want to build and

**[42:53]** then let's just talk at each other for about an hour and then just take that transcript

**[42:56]** there on a cloud and it'll build it."

**[42:59]** So what's your recommendation for getting the recording in-person? Do you use like a

**[43:04]** device to open up your laptop? How do you capture this?

**[43:09]** I just use an app on my phone. And so I've seen some of those devices that, you know,

**[43:16]** I think could be interesting. But in general, the phone is pretty powerful when it comes

**[43:23]** to the note taking. I think some of it is if it's not a dedicated app for an event specifically,

**[43:30]** then you just have one long transcript. And so trying to actually map who you're talking

**[43:37]** to and what that looks like has been challenging. But somebody smart out there might come up

**[43:45]** with a solution.

**[43:46]** No, I just think it's like, it's kind of, there was a point in time where people didn't

**[43:52]** want recorders on the virtual calls. And then it just became like, "Okay, obviously every

**[43:55]** call I'm on, I'm just assuming it's recording, even if I don't see something." Somebody's

**[43:58]** using granola or whatever in the background. And then I think culturally in-person, I think

**[44:04]** we're going to see like, yeah, I'm just going to assume anytime I'm talking to anybody,

**[44:09]** it's getting recorded because there's too much value happening in a conversation that

**[44:14]** you can't avoid putting in a transcript so you could do something with it later.

**[44:18]** Yeah, I completely agree. I think it's going to go through the same adoption curve as we

**[44:23]** saw with the note takers. I mean, yeah, you used to see fireflies or fathom or any of these

**[44:28]** show up in a gong and you're kind of like, "What are you doing?" And now if you don't

**[44:33]** see that, yeah, to your point, it's running granola or something else in the background.

**[44:39]** No, 100%. Well, I'm excited for that time too. And then the other thing would be really

**[44:47]** good for guidance for people listening, percent of budget on events. I'm assuming we're seeing

**[44:54]** it increase because we're seeing an increase of effect or at least a decrease of impact

**[44:59]** on other channels. But any rough guidance or anything that would determine whether they

**[45:07]** need more or less events than other companies?

## 45:10 — How much of your marketing budget belongs in events

**[45:10]** Yeah, so ACV is definitely going to be a big component. If you're anything below $20,000

**[45:18]** and then it can generally be harder to drive as much value from events, anything above

**[45:23]** 20K, the higher the better. But in general, we see historically 25% to 30% of marketing

**[45:32]** budgets have gone towards events. And in the last year or so, we're seeing that go up to

**[45:38]** 35%, 40%. So to me, 40% is a good number and that's just of marketing spend. Then you have

**[45:47]** a lot of the costs sitting things like T&E for the sales team. So I think the fully baked

**[45:52]** number is probably even higher than that, but we're seeing things like 40% of the budget

**[45:59]** and then 50%, 60% of pipeline coming from events.

## 46:03 — Host your own or ride the tent-poles?

**[46:03]** And then do you see any difference between, hey, we should host our own events, we should

**[46:08]** do our own maybe micro events, pop-up events, we should host our own big event versus using

**[46:14]** other events, any difference in ROI or split of spend between those two categories?

**[46:20]** It really, I mean, not to take the cop out, it depends, but I think it's a mix. If you

**[46:29]** run your own small events and you do them independently, then you're able to take advantage

**[46:37]** of an audience that's in that city. But there's no, again, there's no FOMO or time pressure

**[46:44]** to come to that event. So let's just say it's a dinner. If you're running a dinner in New

**[46:50]** York City, there's a lot of competing dinners on any given night, including having dinner

**[46:55]** with your three soon to be four kids. So it's not just professional, it's also personal.

**[47:03]** The benefit of doing an activation around a big event like Dreamforce or something like

**[47:09]** that is that you have 20,000 to 50,000 people who are all coming to a new city. And so the

**[47:18]** combination of people that you could have in that room is unique. And so again, there

**[47:24]** is that FOMO. There's also a lot of competing priorities there too, but it's a little bit

**[47:29]** different. But there's only so many big events that are going to be relevant for you at any

**[47:38]** given time. And so if you only rely on the big events, then there's going to be lots

**[47:42]** of gaps in the schedule. So generally what I recommend is map out the big tent pull events.

**[47:47]** Those are going to be your key events. Obviously, you're not going to want to run a small dinner

**[47:53]** in New York if your major tentpole event is happening in San Francisco on that same week.

**[47:59]** And so mapping out the tentpoles and then working down and filling in the gaps with

**[48:04]** things like roadshow events and local activations is the way to go.

## 48:10 — Wrap

**[48:10]** I love it. Well, especially everything you've built is helping people not only make these

**[48:17]** decisions but also get the most ROI out of every event they go to. I think it's a very,

**[48:24]** very complex problem to solve for. I've been on the other end of trying to calculate the

**[48:31]** ROI, figure out which events we should go to. I am doing that right now at LeanScale.

**[48:36]** I have the same pain. Hey, we're looking for events where CROs and heads of RevOps are

**[48:41]** going to be. Which one should we go to? When we go, how should we show up? And it's not

**[48:46]** an easy decision to make and I have 100% made those decisions on gut and have been burned.

**[48:54]** So anytime I can avoid making a decision that just wastes my time, waste a lot of resources,

**[49:03]** I think it's worthwhile. And I'm 100% seeing the trend go towards more events, less cold

**[49:10]** outreach, less digital and doing it the old-fashioned way, getting in front of people, meeting people,

**[49:17]** but then staying relentless with the pre-event prep, showing up right during the event and

**[49:23]** then the follow-up. I agree with you. So many people miss out on one or more of those major

**[49:29]** components of an event and I really appreciate the story. So thanks for everything that you

**[49:34]** brought today, Alex, and walking us through and you're an absolute expert in the event

**[49:38]** space and I love what you built and what you're doing and I'm really excited to see what you

**[49:44]** all do next and for our audience to hear about this and hopefully get their events fully

**[49:50]** dialed in. I love it. This was fun. Thanks for having me.